Talk:Scotch-Irish Canadians

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Scotch-Irish American was copied or moved into Scotch-Irish Canadian with this edit on 17 May 2014. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

Page move problem

This request for help from administrators has been answered. If you need more help or have additional questions, please reapply the {{admin help}} template, or contact the responding user(s) directly on their own user talk page.

Not a big deal just a move not done properly as per Wikipedia:Moving a page. This page was created by copy and pasting text from Ulster Scots Canadians and from this edit from Scotch-Irish American. I dont think the move to a new title is a problem but we have lost all the page history. I have reverted the edits to these two pages till we can get some admin help in fixing the "cut and paste moves". The term " Ulster Scots" is not used often anymore in Canada and I support the move the new editor was trying to do.... thus why I am asking for help for the new editor. -- Moxy (talk) 03:23, 17 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The {{Histmerge}} template has been placed at the top of this article, and a new request has been made to effect your wishes. – Paine Ellsworth ^CLIMAX! 10:42, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is as simple as just a history merge Moxy. But let me get this straight (before I screw it up).

You want the history of Ulster Scots Canadians merged with the history of Scotch-Irish Canadians (that is simple enough)
There was also a copy/paste from Scotch-Irish Americans as the "template" for SI Canadians?

For point two all you need is to fill out the {{copied}} template on the talk pages of SI Canadians and SI Americans. Is there any reason to history merge the two Canadian articles? Ping me here or on my talk page with your response, and I am happy to complete it for you, just want to get it straight in my head first. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 12:01, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, I just reread your message again, I will do the hist merge. --kelapstick^(bainuu) 12:02, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

THANK YOU GUYS!!.... I will work on sources over the next week....will be posting the books I read below in a new section. --Moxy (talk) 18:44, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Scotch-Irish Canadian or Scots-Irish Canadian

I know this has been a huge issue on the Scotch-Irish American article and talk page, so I'm genuinely not trying to pick a fight on the issue. (For the record, I am an American of partial Scotch-Irish descent, and self-identify as such.) But I have to wonder if Scotch-Irish Canadian is really the more common term than Scots-Irish Canadian. For comparison only, a quick Google search shows the first 30 hits for "Scotch-Irish American" refering to the people group, while most of the first 30 hits for "Scotch-Irish Canadian" refer to alcoholic drinks. The only source in the article refers to Ulster Scot Canadians, but that is probably to be expected, as the source is the BBC. At this point, we have no reliable sources for Ulster Scot Canadian being a less-common term than Scotch-Irish Canadian/Scots-Irish Canadian. - BilCat (talk) 19:28, 18 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Scotch" being used to refer to people is a Victorian archaism. Scots-Irish is now the more common spelling, since the 1990s (i.e. since the public Internet put North Americans in immediate touch with real Scots). This article should move. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SMcCandlish: This article is about Canadians, not Americans. (You really should read your posts more carefully when you copy them from another talk page.) BilCat (talk) 20:32, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Typo fixed. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:50, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

BilCat (talk) 21:01, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The question isn't what do "real Scots" want Canadians of Scots-/Scotch-/Ulster-Scots descent to.be called, but how those Canadians refer to themselves. I raised that question over 9 years ago, right after the article was moved to the current title, and yours is the first response. I probably should have reverted the move right then, and I certainly wouldn't object to it being moved now. But we still don't what the preferred term for this group is for themselves. BilCat (talk) 21:07, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than WP:TALKFORK, I don't think anything raised here is not already covered at Talk:Scotch-Irish Americans#Use of the term "Scotch" is wrong. If these were WP:RMed, it would probably be as a paired nomination. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:41, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you start the RM, you can do whatever you want. I'll still answer it as two separate issues. Two countries, two different cultures, and different bodies of sources concerning what each is called. BilCat (talk) 22:05, 31 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Orange Order

This article assumes Orangeism is synonymous with being Ulster Scots. The OO was founded by people of Huguenot and English descent and initially banned presbyterians from joining. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.252.128.81 (talk) 17:02, 26 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Additional sources

Newton, Michael Steven (2014). "The Gaelic Diaspora in North America". In Stewart Leith, Murray; Sim, Duncan (eds.). The Modern Scottish Diaspora: Contemporary Debates and Perspectives. Edinburgh University Press. pp. 136–152. doi:10.3366/j.ctt1g09zmf. ISBN 9780748681402. – Entire book will probably be of relevance. This was originally an expensive academic issue, but is now available used for around US$15. Significant parts of the content can be Google-previewed here [1].
Newton, Michael Steven, ed. (2013). Celts in the Americas. Sydney, Nova Scotia: Cape Breton University Press / Nimbus Publishing. ISBN 9781897009758. – "This volume contains a selection of the best papers from the conference, ﬁve invited chapters, and an introduction, for a total of nearly 149,000 words." Also covers Irish, Welsh, etc.
Newton, Michael Steven (2011). "Scotland's Two Solitudes Abroad: Scottish Gaelic Immigrant Identity and Culture in North America". In Campbell, Jodi A.; Ewan, Elizabeth; Parker, Heather (eds.). The Shaping of Scottish Identities: Sex, Nation, and the Worlds Beyond. "Guelph Series in Scottish Studies". Guelph: Centre for Scottish Studies. pp. 215–233. ISBN 9780889555891.
Ray, Celeste, ed. (2005). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. ISBN 9780817314736. – Has extensive chapters by 7 or 8 authors. Includes Australia in some of Ray's material, but no dedicated chapter about it; the book is mostly about Canada and the US.
- Ray, Celeste (2005). "Transatlantic Scots and ethnicity". In Ray, Celeste (ed.). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. pp. 21–47. ISBN 9780817314736.
- Vance, Michael (2005). "A Brief History of Organized Scottishness in Canada". In Ray, Celeste (ed.). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. ISBN 9780817314736.
- Vance, Michael (2005). "Powerful Pathos: The Triumph of Scottishness in Nova Scotia". Transatlantic Scots. ISBN 9780817314736.
- Bennett, Margaret (2005). "From the Quebec Hebrideans to les Écossais-Québécois: Tracing the Evolution of a Scottish Cultural Identity in Canada's Eastern Townships". In Ray, Celeste (ed.). Transatlantic Scots. The University of Alabama Press. ISBN 9780817314736.
- Demblin, Jonathan (2005). "You Play It as You Would Sing It: Cape Breton, Scottishness, and the Means of Cultural Production". Transatlantic Scots. ISBN 9780817314736.
- Other pieces include: Ray, Celete; "Scottish Immigration and Ethnic Organization in the United States", "Scottish immigration and ethnic organization in the United States", "Bravehearts and Patriarchs. Masculinity on the Pedestal in Southern Scottish Heritage Celebration". Jarvie, Grant; "The North American Émigré, Highland Games, and Social Capital in International Communities". Hook, Andrew; "Troubling Times in the Scottish-American Relationship". Sheets, John W.; "Finding Colonsay's Emigrants and a 'Heritage of Place'". Basu, Paul; "Pilgrims to the Far Country: North American 'Roots-Tourists' in the Scottish Highlands and Islands". Cowan, Edward J.; "Tartan Day in America". McArthur, Colin; "Transatlantic Scots, Their Interlocutors, and the Scottish Discursive Unconscious".
Sumner, Natasha; Doyle, Aidan, eds. (2020). North American Gaels: Speech, Song, and Story in the Diaspora. McGill–Queen's University Press. ISBN 9780228003793.
Dickson, R. J. (2010). Ulster Emigration to Colonial America, 1718–1785. Ulster Historical Foundation. ISBN 9780901905178. - Might be broadly defined enough to include early Canada (can't tell without getting the book or finding a detailed review of it).
Blethen, Tyler; Wood, Curtis W. Jr. (2001) [1997]. Ulster and North America: Transatlantic Perspectives on the Scotch-Irish. Tuscaloosa: University of Alabama Press. ISBN 9780817311353.
Hanna, Charles Augustus (1902). The Scotch-Irish or the Scot in North Britain, North Ireland, and North America. Vol. 1. New York / London: G. P. Putnam's Sons – via Google Books.
Hanna, Charles Augustus (1902). The Scotch-Irish or the Scot in North Britain, North Ireland, and North America. Vol. 2. New York / London: G. P. Putnam's Sons – via Internet Archive.
Jackson, Carlton (1999) [1993]. A Social History of the Scotch-Irish. Lanham, New York: University Press of America / Madison Books. ISBN 9781568331423.
Leyburn, James Graham (1989) [1962]. The Scotch-Irish: A Social History. Chapel Hill: University of North Carolina Press. ISBN 978-0807842591. – Covers the Plantation of Ulster through American emigration and early US history; might cover Canada, too, but check reviews before ordering.
Miller, Kerby A.; Boling, Bruce D.; Doyle, David N.; Schrier, Arnold, eds. (2003). Irish Immigrants in the Land of Canaan: Letters and Memoirs from Colonial and Revolutionary America 1675–1815. New York / Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195154894. – "A massive, scrupulously edited case studies of early emigrants from Ireland (most from Ulster)". Since it's pre-US, it may also cover Canada, but check reviews before ordering.
Wokeck, Marianne (1999). Trade in Strangers: The Beginning of Mass Migration to North America. College Park: Pennsylvania State University Press. ISBN 9780271018331. – "Assesses the volume, character, and motivations for Ulster [among other, e.g. German, African, etc.] emigration to America." Presumably also Canada, since title says "North America".
Miller, Kerby A. (1988) [1985]. Emigrants in Exile: Ireland and the Irish Exodus to North America. New York / Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 9780195051872. – Not limited to Ulster.

Scotch-Irish Canadians verses Canada's Ulster Scots

Why was this article moved from Ulster Scots Canadians to Scotch-Irish Canadians? Scotch-Irish is an American term not used in Canada, where the preferred term is Ulster Scots. In fact the only source used for this article uses call's them Canada's Ulster Scots.

I suggest moving the article per common name.

TFD (talk) 12:43, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell the common term in Canada is Scotch-Irish or Scots Irish, not Ulster Scots. Do you have evidence that it's a purely American term not used in Canada? Canterbury Tail talk 16:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Canada's Ulster - Scots by Brian McConnell. Kerby A. Miller explains how the term Scotch-Irish came to be used in the U.S. to distinguish Irish Protestants from Catholics.(pp. 75 ff.)[2]

To be frank, I don't think Canadians used either term very much, so would expect to see the term used in the UK.

Do you have any reason to believe that the term Scotch Irish is commonly used in Canada? TFD (talk) 18:50, 9 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]