Jump to content

Talk:On the Art of the Cinema/GA1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GA Review

[edit]
GA toolbox
Reviewing

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Viriditas (talk · contribs) 07:25, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Images

[edit]
Resolved

Infobox

[edit]
Resolved

Naming conventions

[edit]

Lead

[edit]

 Doing...

  • Actual impact on North Korean films themselves, however, is disputed
    • @Finnusertop: I've read this many times and I find it too informal. Could you clean it up a bit? There are many different ways you could do it, but something like this might work as a good starting point: "The influence of the book on North Korean films is disputed." This sentence could then be briefly expanded to summarize the dispute. Viriditas (talk) 01:06, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Viriditas: I've replaced it with the following: "Its actual impact on North Korean filmmaking, however, is disputed. Films from before and after the publication of the treatise are very similar in style and many contemporary films breach various rules laid out in On the Art of the Cinema." Is this okay? – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 02:05, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Finnusertop: it is certainly an improvement, but try to minimize the use of words like actual, however, very, and many, per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch and other guidelines. Viriditas (talk) 03:05, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • @Viriditas: I've separated these two phrases to form a new paragraph and got rid of the problematic words. It now eliminates a problematic POV that suggested that because the book had a political role it should have had an effect on filmmaking (no sources suggest this). It now reads: "The impact of On the Art of the Cinema on North Korean filmmaking is disputed. Films from before and after the publication of the treatise are similar in style and many contemporary films breach various rules laid out in the treatise." – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 15:09, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Background

[edit]

 Doing...

  • @Finnusertop: I see an issue with Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing of the David-West 2009 source in this section. Please review. Is the David-West source copyrighted? Viriditas (talk) 03:41, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Viriditas: you are right; some of it is very closely paraphrased (since the source is copyrighted, this is unacceptable). I believe I have fixed it now, but let me know if you think something that should be refined: diff. – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 15:48, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you for making an effort. Looking at the diffs, there is now an unclear anachronism (creative industry instead of government) and inadvertent downplaying and omission (prohibition instead of burning of books). You might want to leave it but come back to it, perhaps with a second source. Viriditas (talk) 10:30, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Viriditas: You're right, "creative industry" isn't the same thing as "state arts bureaucracy". I tried to find an equivalent to avoid close paraphrasing but the meaning was altered. I have returned "state arts bureaucracy". I have also returned the destruction of the conference archive, as it seems relevant enough. I tried to see if some other sources have something more to say about this, but I couldn't find anything. If you think this section needs more work, I'll take another look more sources. Changes: diff. – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 16:00, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • Here's a simple three-step checklist to help you fix the close paraphrasing and avoid it in the future: 1) do exceptions apply, such as proper nouns or free content? If yes, leave it, if no, then 2) look to see if the material is a good candidate for quoting and attributing. If yes, add the quotes and attribute the source, if no, then 3) rewrite the material using your own phrasing and wording that best summarizes the material. Now, see if you can apply this to the above problem. Viriditas (talk) 22:05, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
            • Thanks for the tip, Viriditas. In this case, I've reproduced proper names as they appear ("Kim Jong-il", "Aesthetic Review Meeting" and other party organizations, names of films). There is no free content involved as the source (David-West 2009) and all others are copyrighted. As for quoting, I don't feel that it's necessary here; the source offers no particularly poignant wording and skillful paraphrasing leads to a more encyclopedic outcome here. I've further changed the wording to avoid close paraphrasing. Are we in agreement that the level of paraphrasing is now acceptable? Changes: diff. – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 02:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
              • Phrasing like "In total, Kim had obtained around a decade of experience in the state arts bureaucracy by this time" is far too close to the source material and requires paraphrasing. "State arts bureaucracy" could easily be changed to government arts council or something else that fits into the NK political structure. "Decade of experience" also needs to be paraphrased. Again, please review the current content because I don't want to raise this issue again. Viriditas (talk) 03:06, 2 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although Kim is known to have been privately interested in Hollywood films,[7] he forbade discussion on 'foreign' film concepts at the Aesthetic Review Meeting
    • Per WP:QUOTEMARKS, double quotation marks should be used for "foreign". It isn't exactly clear if you are quoting a POV or not. Viriditas (talk) 03:07, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Foreign" appears in double quotation marks in the source. I am unsure as to what the source is trying to do here: quote Kim (the source quotes Kim immediately after the sentence) or express its own POV. In either case, I'm quoting the opinion of either Kim or David-West.
WP:YESPOV says "Avoid stating opinions as facts" and recommends explicit attribution (quoting). I could quote the source as saying that Kim:

"banned discussion on 'foreign' film concepts"

. (single quotes per MOS:QWQ). I've implemented this. Change: diff.
In any case, MOS doesn't recommend quoting a single word with double quotation marks: MOS:QUOTE#Point of view: "Concise opinions that are not overly emotive can often be reported with attribution instead of direct quotation. Use of quotation marks around simple descriptive terms can often seem to imply something doubtful regarding the material being quoted; sarcasm or weasel words, like "supposedly" or "so called", might be inferred." – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 11:43, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, but it seems like a case of paraphrasing is needed instead of quoting. In other words, why quote here at all? Viriditas (talk) 20:13, 6 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How about: Kim forbade discussion on foreign film concepts? Paraphrasing instead of quoting, and eliminating the quotation marks around "foreign" altogether. – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 03:14, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Please try it and see if it works. Viriditas (talk) 20:29, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
 Done – Finnusertop (talkcontribs) 13:31, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria

[edit]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose is "clear and concise", without spelling and grammar errors:
    B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. Has an appropriate reference section:
    B. Cites reliable sources, where necessary:
    C. No original research:
    D. No copyright violations nor plagiarism:
    Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing is a concern
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused (see summary style):
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:
    B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:

New reviewer needed

[edit]