Talk:Hagakure/Archive 1

Archive 1

Online version

The only current link doesnt work. Perhaps we could replace it with a link to an online text version of the whole Hagakure.

http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/Hagakure1.html

This link doesn't work.

I'll second the motion to find a link to an online version of the Hagakure text -- if one exists.

If an online version doesn't exist, perhaps a link to a bookseller that carries this work, such as that Brazilian river/tropical rainforest dot com...?

This page seems to have some of the chapters in some accuracy:

[1]

Pray, who owns the copyright of the Hagakure? Can a book that is more than 100 years old have any valid copyright today? WikiStefan(de)

No, but if the translation is more recent than that, the translation may still be in copyright I'm not sure on the laws regarding the copyright of translations. --Jonathan Drain 15:32, 25 January 2005 (UTC)

FYI: A translation is a new work, and is copyrighted accordingly. If the original is still under copyright, the translator would require permission from the copyright holder (referred to as a translation right). If the original is no longer copyrighted, then no permission is required. Either way, the translation is considered a new work and is copyrighted according to the copyright laws at the time the translation is created (unless specifically released into the public domain).

As for providing a link to a bookseller—instead just add the book under references and include the ISBN. For example: ISBN 4-7700-1106-7. A quick look at amazon.com shows there are multiple translations available [2]. --BlankVerse 08:02, 26 January 2005 (UTC)

New text

"It is unfortunate that this classic of Japanese literature is characterised in the above abstract as having little appeal in post World War II Japan. The book was proscribed by the American Militery Occupation and its publication and distribution was suppressed. Quite different value judgments are expressed and are in print in Japan, published by the Hagakure Society of Saga Han, particularly in the Journals of that Society. Reference should be made to HAGAKURE - SPIRIT OF BUSHIDO, edited by Professor Hideo Koga and Professor Stacey B. Day for the University of Kyushu Press, and published in two volumes in 1993. Volume I is in Japanese. Volume 2 is in English (ISBN -4-87378-359-3-C1012). A further text, published by the University of Kyushu Press in 1994, also offers a different insight into Bushido, the moral code of the Samurai. This book is entitled: THE WISDOM OF HAGAKURE : THE WAY OF THE SAMURAI OF SAGA DOMAIN, by Stacey B. Day and Kiyoshi Inokuchi (ISBN 4-87378-389-5). It cannot be emphasised enough that when one uses a language other than Japanese to convey the ancient Japanese cultural image as written in the original caligraphic texts, great care must be taken not to MISINFORM readers. Professor Day points out, for example, that although the phrase - "THE WAY OF THE SAMURAI IS FOUND IN DEATH" may be best known in the West, a more accurate translation would read "I HAVE FOUND THAT BUSHIDO IS DEATH", words closer to the spiritual and conceptual teaching of the Hagakure."

An anon added this mass of text. It strikes me as a bit POV, but still with some good material. Anyone want to take a shot at merging it in? --Maru (talk) Contribs 23:13, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Hidden by the leaves? Shadow of the leaves?

Hagakure (Kyūjitai: 葉隱; Shinjitai: 葉隠; meaning In the Shadow of Leaves)

While "In the Shadow of Leaves" is a commonly given translation, it seems more poetic, while the more accurate translation is "Hidden by the leaves" or "Hidden leaves" (as Wilson states in his introduction). Which definition should be preferred for this article?--DrHacky 07:13, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

If you can source them, stick them all in. Assuming they are all equally well sourced, I would make the most literal one ('Hidden leaves'?) the one given in the nihongo template, and I would stick in the <ref></ref>s the citation for that after perhaps a note giving the other translations. --Gwern (contribs) 01:58 29 July 2007 (GMT)

Fair use rationale for Image:Hagakure.jpg

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BetacommandBot 06:29, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Name of the Author: Tsunetomo Yamamoto vs. Jōchō Yamamoto

In most publications Tsunetomo Yamamoto is stated as the source of Hagakure but in the most recent German translation published by Reclam, Jōchō Yamamoto is stated instead, corresponding with the French Wikipedia page, that also mentions Jōchō Yamamoto as source of Hagakure. My question is, if these are two different people, thus that there are in fact two "official" or original versions of Hagakure or that these are just two different versions of the same name. I hope somebody has an answer to this topic, because, as I see it, this would be a crutial bit of information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.92.9.58 (talk) 14:06, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

I think Tsunetomo is his normal given name. Jocho is the name he got after becoming a monk. 2003:6C:2F54:E801:ADBC:7821:6283:2F63 (talk) 08:35, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Is this really the only full translation?

"As of 2007, Bushido, The Way of the Samurai, Yamamoto Tsunetomo, Translated by Justin F. Stone and Minoru Tanaka is the only true full translation into English."

With only 112 pages (what Amazon says), I seriously doubt it. But then, a bilingual edition by Kodansha is only 300pp.! Anyone who has seen the real McCoy in a serious Japanese edition?MT Editor (talk) 03:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

French WikiSource seems to have full text (or at least several chapters. All in French, unfortunately). Could we find a translation from somewhere to English Wikisource as well? jni ^(delete)_{...just not interested} 17:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Symbol on cover of In-Print ed.

I own the current in-print ed. of the latest English translation in America (William Scott Wilson). The book has been a favorite of mine for some time, but the symbol on the front has perplexed me. Take a look at: http://www.amazon.com/Hagakure-Book-Samurai-Yamamoto-Tsunetomo/dp/4770011067/sr=8-1/qid=1162092965/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-6005019-1155344?ie=UTF8&s=books

It appears to be the international biological hazard symbol. This seems like an interesting bit of trivia if anyone knows more. Did the publishers choose this symbol retroactively, or is it a symbol with Japanese significance. Another interesting tidbit would be whether or not the biohazard symbol came from this sign and how. The current WP article] on the biohazard symbol states it was developed by the Dow company, without any inspiration.

Anyone know more and want to help add it to the article? Thelastemperor 03:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I realize that this doesn't really help, but I've think I've seen that design before as a Mon (badge). --Gwern (contribs) 05:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It is a kamon or family crest. This represents three stylized and interlocking cranes.

Also, the international Biohazard Symbol was created in 1966, and while it does resemble this kamon, it is not the same if you take a closer look at the inner circles. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.255.184.63 (talk) 05:07, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

tsuifuku?

"Tsunetomo himself was forbidden to perform Tsuifuku, a retainer's ritual suicide..." What is tsuifuku if it's not seppuku? The hyperlink just redirects to the seppuku page, which doesn't explain tsuifuku either. Is this a term used in Hagakure? What is the kanji for it? Is there any reason not to change it to (the better-known) seppuku?--DrHacky 16:53, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

From the Hagakure:

At the time of Lord Nabeshima Naohiro's death, Lord Mitsushige forbade Naohiro 's retainers the practice of tsuifuku. His messenger went to Naohiro's mansion and made the declaration, but those who received this news could in no way agree to it. From their midst Ishimaru Uneme (later called Seizaemon) spoke from the lowest seat, "It is improper for me as a younger person to speak out, but I think that what Lord Katsushige has said is reasonable. As a person who received the master's care when I was young, I had whole- heartedly decided on tsuifuku. But hearing Lord Katsushige's dictum and being convinced of his reasoning, no matter what the others may do, I am giving up the idea of tsuifuku and will serve the master's successor." Hearing this, the others all followed suit.

Your guess is as good as mine. Skomorokh ^incite 19:13, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I've traced the change to this edit- http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Hagakure&diff=next&oldid=116223027, by an anonymous editor. In a "d'oh" moment, I realised I had a bilingual version of Hagakure, with Wilson's translation, to chase this up in. While your excerpt uses "tsuifuku", the same passage in Wilson uses the term "oibara"- onyomi and kunyomi respectively of the kanji 追腹 ("following belly"), and oibara is the term defined on the seppuku page. Both usages seem to be popular, so I might add the on'yomi to the seppuku page.--DrHacky 07:04, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Kanji: 対幅 and here's a link that describes the word as generally meaning "hanging scrolls" from the Japanese Archetecture and Art Net Users System:
http://www.aisf.or.jp/~jaanus/deta/t/tsuifuku.htm -- GeorgeHarnish 5:21 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GeorgeHarnish (talk • contribs).

"Lord Mitsushige forbade Naohiro's retainers the practice of hanging scrolls..." Did he have something against artistic pursuits? I think seppuku is more likely. Besides, the kanji in the original is actually 追腹, according to my bilingual version of the text. --DrHacky 04:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the meaning comes more from "hanging" than from "scrolls" -- a literary allusion of sorts, along the lines of being unworthy to perform seppuku, they performed tsuifuku instead (hung themselves like scrolls). Purely conjecture. GeorgeHarnish (talk) 19:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• Based on what is in the seppuku article, it is specifically the act of suicide on the death of one's master. Kortoso (talk) 22:16, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Better image cover?

Is the hazmat symbol decoration entirely appropriate? -- 李博杰  | —Talk contribs email 09:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

It is kind of strange, but that's what the author/publisher chose for their cover art... it's not like we can alter the cover. ~ AMorozov ^〈talk〉 02:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

The "hazard symbols" is not that at all, but rather three "dai" kanji in a circle. It is not an uncommon crest. Dai means big, and was used by families hoping for success and good fortune. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.44.198 (talk) 02:26, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.44.198 (talk) 02:28, 8 March 2010 (UTC) 

It's not the mon for any of the persons in question (Yamamoto, Nabeshima). Does anyone have a clue as to which family's mon this might be? Kortoso (talk) 22:22, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

"former samurai"

Former? Samurai was a class, not a position. Even after the death of his lord he was no less samurai than before. --71.139.161.239 02:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

He would actually become a ronin. Here is wikipedia's description for Ronin-

A rōnin (浪人, rōnin?) was a masterless samurai during the feudal period (1185–1868) of Japan. A samurai became masterless from the ruin or fall of his master, or after the loss of his master's favor or privilege. Since a rōnin did not serve any lord, he was no longer a samurai, as the noun samurai came from the verb saburau which was the Japanese for "to serve".

He had no master, so he was no longer a samurai. One quick correction, this assumes we are speaking of the Edo period sense of the word Ronin.--

You might not be right about that. Yamamoto Tsunetomo applied for permission to commit suicide upon the death of his lord, which was denied on the order of the Shogun (not his personal suicide, but the practice of retainers following their lords into death). Rather than follow a new Lord he elected to retire from active service - which was an entirely honourable thing for him to do, given his age and long service of the Nabeshima clan.70.73.164.229 (talk) 07:21, 7 July 2019 (UTC)