Jump to content

Talk:Gezi Park

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Armenian Cemetery

[edit]

Sorry, I watched casually the last changes on the article, and before an edit war happens :-), I would like to make a couple of statement:

  • In don't think that there is an immediate cause-effect relationship between the demolition of the cemetery and the Armenian Genocide. In fact, the Armenian Community in Istanbul partly escaped the same fate of the Armenians in Anatolia, and also today there are an estimated 60-70.000 native Armenians (i.e. not immigrated from the Republic of Armenia, but Istanbullu) in the city.
  • As example of that, I can cite the fate of the Armenian cemetery in Yesilköy: there, until 50 years ago there were 2 cemeteries side by side: the Armenian and the Catholic. About 50 years ago the city of Istanbul started to demolish both to build an open market and a park, but had to stop destroying the catholic one after protests of the Vatican. The Armenian cemetery was destroyed, but its land has been given back to the Armenian church last year (the catholic one, where many notable Levantines are buried, is currently under restoration). It should be noticed that at that time (like now) a large part of the populaion of Yesilköy is Armenian.
  • NYT (or any other newspaper) cannot be considered a reliable source in history;

Alex2006 (talk) 10:57, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

News sources often contain both factual content and opinion content. "News reporting" from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact WP:NEWSORG. The New York Times is obviously well-established and therefore can absolutely considered to be a reliable source.--Markus2685 (talk) 18:42, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


List of several reliable sources:

In due course, the cemetery was razed and its land was used to build a number of parks, public and commercial buildings

Gravestones from an Armenian cemetery at Taksim demolished in 1939 were used to construct stairs at Gezi Park

the neighboring Armenian Pangaltı cemetery [was] demolished to build the park that stands there today

As this map shows, the cemetery once stood in the area occupied today by sections of Gezi Park, and surrounding properties, including the TRT Istanbul Radio building and major hotels like the Skidmore, Owings & Merrill-designed Istanbul Hilton (built in 1954). Marble headstones from the cemetery were used to build Gezi Park's fountains and stairs.

One of the last few green spots left in the center of Istanbul, Gezi Park was once part of the city’s Armenian cemetery. It was confiscated in the 1930s and made into a park.

After the genocide in 1915, when the Armenians were expelled, the owner clearly changed. Barracks were built there, then a park.

The campaign against Armenians involved confiscating their land, such as the cemetery; it was razed in the nineteen-thirties. Now part of Gezi Park, it is the site of hotels, apartment buildings, and a Turkish Radio and Television center. Gravestones remain on view, however: they were used to construct stairs.


I have left out the dozens of reliable Turkish sources and have only mentioned the English language ones.--Markus2685 (talk) 22:29, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Markus I have dozens if not hundreds of books, journals, websites and news sources in Turkish at my disposal to use for this article. When I created this article about 6-7 months back, the sources on the confiscation of this property were very limited. Now there's hundreds thank God. But Alex, you claim that there's no relation with the confiscation and the Genocide, when in fact there's a direct correlation. During the Armenian Genocide, the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople was suspended and Zaven Der Yeghiayan was forced into exile in Baghdad. In the mean time, the chair of the Patriarchy was left vacant and confiscations of Armenian property were done throughout the empire. Please read the other article I have created, Confiscated Armenian properties in Turkey...it is clear given the sources provided there that the Genocide was used as the ways and means of acquiring property without any counter-claimants. Such was the case with this cemetery. The Turkish sources clearly states this. Proudbolsahye (talk) 03:54, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry Proudbolsahye, I think that I expressed myself wrongly. What I meant is that from the article it looks like as the genocide (that is, the extermination of Armenians) took place also in Istanbul, and that the cemetery was confiscated because there were not Armenians anymore in the city. I think that this policy of confiscation was rather a characteristic of the Kemalist government which hit, as in Yesilköy (where I read that also the Rum cemetery was confiscated) all the minorities in Istanbul. Alex2006 (talk) 05:44, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry Alex. I totally mistook this article for the Pangalti Armenian Cemetery article. I will however find relevant sources that point out the fact that it the confiscation was correlated to the Genocide since the lack of title was because of the Genocide itself. In regards to the impact of Genocide for Istanbul Armenians, I must say that the general Armenian population did not suffer much. However, there were MAJOR exceptions. The entire intellegentsia of the Armenian community of Constantinople was killed (See Deportation of Armenian notables in 1915). This includes poets, writers, doctors, lawyers, priests and etc. This policy also led to the forceful suspension of the Partiarchy and the subsequent exile of Zaven Der Yeghiayan to the deserts of Mesopotamia...just like the rest of his people. Therefore, the forceful exile and the subsequent lack of title was directly due to the Armenian Genocide. As mentioned earlier, this paved the way for a legal justification to confiscate Armenian property held under the title of the Patriarchy. If these details can be explained in a precise manner, I don't see why it should be removed. Proudbolsahye (talk) 09:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your info, and no problem: as I wrote, I was just perplex about a direct correlation. Moreover, I totally ignored what happened to the Armenian notables. Spending much time in Yesilköy, where Turks are a minority :-) I thought that Armenians in Istanbul escaped the horrors of Anatolia. But would not be the case to write then this info in the Armenians in Istanbul article ? Generally speaking, I don't know if Turkish governments - both then and now - bothered in each case about laws or lack of title to justify what they wanted to do... :-) Alex2006 (talk) 09:48, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User Murus has deleted the complete section… From 1560 to 1930 the city’s Armenian cemetery was located on the areal of today's Gezi Park. After the Armenian Genocide the cemetery was demolished in 1930 and its marble tombstones were sold in 1939 or were used to construct the Park.… Murus is claiming that the statemant is "unsupported by sources" (which is obviously false) and "needs more research". Murus even argumented that this statement can be "interpreted as a slander". The above list clearly shows the reliable sources used for this section. Therefore I am of the opinion, according to Wikipedia rules, that the deletion of the text by User Murus is not justified and needs to be revoked. --Markus2685 (talk) 10:17, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Alex for your understanding. I must say, it's always a pleasure working with you. Markus, as of now, restoring the statement is of your best option. We'll go from there. If there are any objections, I'll be more than happy to provide additional sources to the claims. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:29, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I will wait a few more days. If nobody revokes the deletion then I will do it. The statement is entirely in accordance with the Wikipedia requirements for sources. The New York Times, The Huffington Post, The Majalla, The Times of Israel, The New Yorker etc. … all these sources are well-established and absolutely reliable sources which are enough to support the statement which was deleted by User Murus.--Markus2685 (talk) 19:32, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Markus, you may also want to add this source that directly links the confiscation of Armenian property with the Armenian genocide. As explained in the source:

When the First World War began, there were two million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire; by 1922, fewer than four hundred thousand remained—a slaughter of 1.5 million that historians call a genocide. (The word “genocide” was coined by Raphael Lemkin, a Jewish lawyer and Holocaust survivor, after his study of the Armenian massacres.) The campaign against Armenians involved confiscating their land, such as the cemetery; it was razed in the nineteen-thirties.

Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2013 (UTC) [reply]

The Cemetery was actually located about 2 km north in Pangalti far away from the square or the park, very obvious from the map given in the supposed source "new yorker". Clear overlooking of the facts by the reporter for sensationalism. The park itself is located at the exact location where the artillery barracks used to be. This article is blood libel and slander against a nation.

A time to scatter stones and a time to gather them...

[edit]

I have added an opening sentence to the history section and made a few stylistic edits. I am glad that we are having a worthwhile, cooperative discussion here. The sentence: "After the Armenian Genocide the cemetery was demolished in 1930 and its marble tombstones were sold in 1939 or were used in the construction of the Park" has too many citations, so I am asking to kindly reduce them to one or two, most authoritative. Best, --Murus (talk) 13:00, 2 July 2013 (UTC).[reply]

Hi everybody! Follow up: I have also added <POV-title> to the section to ensure that all diverse viewpoints on the history of the Taksim Gezi Park are considered! Best, --Murus (talk) 23:54, 3 July 2013 (UTC).[reply]
What's there to debate may I ask? Why put a POV? I don't understand what the problem is with this statement. Proudbolsahye (talk) 02:18, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Scratch my last post. I have fixed any sort of POV issues. I also added "former" to the Champs des Morts because that was indeed its former location. Champs des Morts moved to Ferikoy. Proudbolsahye (talk) 02:42, 4 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Armenian cementary = Not as park intended, no park built on it, nothing to do with the Park

[edit]

The user Marcus has kidnapped the topic in order to implement his political armenian agenda. He thinks that collecting references which contradict themselves and even contradict what he is saying is a proof. I'd say, judge for yourself:

First, keep in mind where the armenian cementary (ermeni mezarligi) is, in that Map of 1922: [[1]] [[2]]

Then, check out this map [[3]] this is the map Prost made in 1939, check out whats planned for the armenian cementary: Buildings! (blue squares). Look at upper left corner tofind the Inonu Park, the todays Gezi Park. The ride side of it is the former armenian cementary area... Not intended as a park!

Today, the place where the armenian cementary was, is full of buildings, you can see them right in the neighbouring north area of Gezi Park. [[4]]

Not as park intended, no park built, nothing to do with the Park. --Zoylab (talk) 13:57, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not armenian cementary II

[edit]

Markus references are foul and false. He doesn't do any reference checks. If we discuss topics of urban planning, whom should we ask? Urban planning experts! He made the same show on German Wikipedia, with the result that his part got deleted. I am asking you to discuss with me, check my sources, search yourself, thats how we will find out the truth.

  • In the period when Lütfü Kırdar was the mayor, the most significant transformation planned by Henri Prost, for Taksim Square, was the demolition of Taksim Artillery Barracks to build the İnönü Esplanade. The esplanade was defined as Boulogne Woods of İstanbul. Now called Gezi Park, İnönü Esplanade was designed as a starting spot of the second park, which was thought to be the lungs 4 of the planned residential area. In this respect the demolition of the barracks was one of the essential decisions for the master plan of Istanbul.

Source: [[5]] Please read the source. Its essential to understand the history of Gezi Park and Prosts Plan! We learn: The Gezi Park was once Inönü Park, on place of the former the Taksim Artillery Barracks. No armenian cementary!

  • One aspect of Proust’s plans was to expand the square, and this meant demolishing the already partially derelict “Topcu Kislasi”. The 26000 square meters of land it occupied was later transformed into today’s Taksim Gezi Park, otherwise known as “Inonu Promenade.” [1]

From: http://www.archdaily.com/388271/when-urban-planning-gets-political-the-history-of-taksim-square/ Their source: [1] Polvan, Sinan, and Yonet, Neslihan Aydin, ”Story of Taksim Square’s Transformation: “From Death’s stillness to life’s Hubbub”

  • Prost's plan included the proposal, for the establishment of a port area at Yenikapi, Inonu Promenade in Taksim that replaced an early modern barracks.

Source: Istanbul, an urban history: Byzantion, Constaninopolis, Istanbul, Dogan Kurban, p. 505

Can Markus post maps to support his claim? No! Anybody else? No!

Can I show you maps? Yea! Check out my previous discussion point. Which reference do the maps of Istanbul support? The claim that there the Gezi Park is not on the 1930 raised cementary. The Gezi Park is on the Taksim Bahcesi and the Artillary Barracks. All urban planning sources say it. So where is armenian cementary? On the opposite area of Gezi Park! The area when you cross the street Asker Ocagi caddesi.

Who says it? - the armenian sources themselves, check out the picture with the building encircled by a drawn line. Thats the cementary today! [[6]] - Prost Plan No. 2 --Zoylab (talk) 13:06, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- Edit: Check out this for orientation: [[7]] --Zoylab (talk) 16:57, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My thoughts. It is not in dispute that there was an Armenian cemetery, and that it was destroyed, and that it was destroyed as part of a SINGLE planned urban development project, a project that created what is now called Gezi Park. The cemetery was destroyed to provide a northern section for the park now called Gezi Park. The Proust plan [[8]] clearly shows a continuity of design extending from what is now Gezi Park into the area formerly occupied by the cemetery, including a solid link in the form of a pedestrian bridge over an existing road. It was all one unified park. However, the parks northern section was never fully realised, and much that was realised was subsequently built upon (including by the Hilton hotel). Even in its current truncated form (it's been reduced in area by at least a half) Gezi Park covers more than just the area formerly occupied by the barracks. It once covered an even greater area - and it was intended to cover a far greater area than even that. The fact that Gezi Park RIGHT NOW does not seem to occupy any of the area of the former cemetery is not a reason to remove mention of the cemetery from the article. The destruction of the cemetery, and Prost’s park project, is part of the history of Gezi Park’s origin and so needs to be mentioned. It is also completely inaccurate for Zoylab to claim that it was not intended to incorporate the area of the cemetery into the park (Prost’s drawn-up plan shows otherwise), and that there was no park built on it (there was, until the area was built up), and that it has nothing to do with Gezi Park (it does, since it was all part of the one development project). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.143.19 (talk) 21:03, 25 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! Unfortunately User Zoylab, with his kind of aggressive tone when discussing, has already achieved that the complete section about the Armenian Pangalti Cemetery has been deleted from the German Gezi Park article. The only remaining reference in the German article is the following sentence "Ein ebenfalls nicht mehr genutzter armenischer Friedhof (Ermeni mezarlighi) befand sich nicht im Bereich der von Prost geplanten Grünanlagen" (in English: Also an Armenian cemetery (Ermeni mezarlighi), which was not in use anymore, was not in the area of Prost's plans for the parks". He is not even mentioning the name of the cemetery anymore, I guess in order to prevent a direct link to the Armenian cemetery. And just for you to know with who you are discussing and what his attitude is … User Zoylab has referred to the Armenian Genocide as "Armenian Genocide accusations". For me, this makes his intentions clear.--Markus2685 (talk) 10:57, 1 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, I think, based on reading the original Turkish news reports and on wandering around the site in June and July, that those Armenian gravestones were found during the excavations for constructing an underground underpass that runs along the line between the northern border of todays Gezipark and the small remaining bit of the park that extended into the former graveyard site (i.e., at the location of the road that goes under that pedestrian bridge on the Prost plan). I've seen some Armenian reports in English that mention them being found near the Hilton Hotel - but none of the original reports mention the Hilton and there was no excavation work going on at that location. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.143.19 (talk) 20:46, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The armenian cementery which is a seperated area NORTH of the Gezi-Park area was demolished during the implementation of Prosts-Plan- YES. The whole park-complex that was being changed by Prost is NOT called Gezi Park, its Parc No.2. The part the Gezi Park is now was called "Inönü Esplanade" - its a different element of the parc - a different park with a different structure and function. Only the Inönü-Esplanade -> History of Gezi Park. The area north of the Gezi-Park = the NEIGHBOURING area = a different topic = was not intended to be a park - but a building side with some trees between the buildings - in a general green area city plan. You can see the cubes that represent building if you looked at the map.
So you are mixing the areas just because both were dealt with at the same time. Why do you put the history of the neighbouring area into this one? Is it because armenian-guilt mongering- mentality is more important that writing accurate articles? --Zoylab (talk) 11:07, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sometimes I find more useful informations on the discussion page than in the article itself. Thank you Zoylab for your eye-opening efforts. Until now I was a believer in the armenian genocide. No more after seeing here on this discussion page all their lies that you exposed. Thankfully you were more successful against this guilt-mongering at the German page of this article. Keep up the good work! --SagNeinZurDreifaltigkeit (talk) 06:58, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

[edit]

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:22, 1 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 March 2024

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. – robertsky (talk) 11:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Taksim Gezi Park → Gezi Park – "Gezi Park" alone is a lot more common than "Taksim Gezi Park", which prepends the neighborhood it is located next to, unnecessarily lengthening the title. Also compare [9] and [10]. Aintabli (talk) 18:52, 25 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 00:50, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Chidgk1 (talk) 17:09, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Retrieved from "http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gezi_Park&oldid=1218205831"