Talk:Fall River F.C. (1922–1931)

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On 11 March 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Fall River F.C.. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

Rename

The team's name should be changed to Fall River FC. Marksmen was a nickname using the last name of the owner which was common practice for sports teams. It was a descriptive term that also appeared as 'Markmen' or 'Mark's men' from time to time. Libro0 (talk) 11:55, 26 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To follow up on the above, a slightly better option might be to name the article Fall_River_F.C._(Marksmen). This allows for the correct team name to appear along with a way to differentiate from other Fall River FC franchises. Libro0 (talk) 20:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to them?

What happened after 1930? --AW (talk) 04:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Requested move 11 March 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 16:13, 28 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fall River Marksmen → Fall River F.C. – There is a previously moved article called Fall River F.C. that has been moved to Fall River F.C. (1932). So the redirect is currently occupied preventing Fall River Marksmen moving there. -- Libro0 (talk) 04:41, 7 March 2023 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Kj cheetham (talk) 15:36, 11 March 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 15:54, 19 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, would you please be able to show evidence that the club from the 1920's should be at the base title, while the one from the 1930's should have a disambiguator? As opposed to, for example, a dabpage at the base title? Dr. Vogel (talk) 08:43, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Courtesy ping @Libro0 Silikonz💬 21:26, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure I can provide evidence to that effect. I can provide countless references to what the team's official name is. The other team played a season in 1932 and was significantly less notable. I can provide citations in their respective articles. It would help me to organize these articles which need more attention. The 1920's team was quite notable and had the name much longer. This information is shown in these articles. Titling articles with nicknames should be avoided because I have renamed an article that had a totally erroneous nickname while other teams have had several nicknames over different periods. Libro0 (talk) 00:04, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
DrVogel do you want to contest this move? -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:11, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I left it here because I'm on the fence and I wanted to see more opinions. My gut feeling with this one is that a dabpage or even a merge would be better than moving one of the 2 clubs to the base title, but I could be persuaded either way. Dr. Vogel (talk) 13:05, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Given we're not sure, this probably needs a full WP:RM. -Kj cheetham (talk) 11:30, 11 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you see above back in 2009, no one replied since no one is working this subject. These articles were just copy pasted into here without any research. So there aren't very many subject matter experts to confer with. Libro0 (talk) 04:29, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would really prefer not to merge. I am trying to keep the integrity of the individual franchises and their lineage. The request was technical not about content. The dabs can be made by the the founding year. At this point that would seem most appropriate. The pages have been a mess from the start. I would like to clean them up. But it is going to take time. Libro0 (talk) 04:24, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so here are some references. That show the team was established as Fall River F.C.
”Steel Company Asks Release Of D.Campbell". (September 16, 1922). The Evening Herald, p.5 col.1

”Sam Mark Signs Three New Stars". (September 18, 1922). The Evening Herald, p.8 col.4

”Cup Entries In East Show Decided Slump". (September 20, 1922). The Evening Herald, p.13 col.4

”First Big Soccer Game Sunday". (September 23, 1922). The Evening Herald, p.11 col.6

”Mark Expresses His Appreciation". (September 25, 1922). Fall River Globe, p.11 col.1 Libro0 (talk) 16:34, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. Giant Snowman 16:54, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - the various 'The Year in American Soccer' sources on the article refer to the club with 'Marksmen', and so does RSSSF. I suggest the base page is turned into a dismabiguation page, and also include Fall River United. Giant Snowman 16:57, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never use RSSSF and similar sites as a source. The authors of those pages stated that they took certain liberties, such as choosing to write about teams using colorful nicknames that appeared in newspapers. There are errors on those pages which I have tried correct. There are numerous teams named Marksmen because Sam Mark was involved in some capacity such as the Fall River Independents. I suggest Fall River F.C. (1922). Nicknames are abundant in sports and should not be confused with official ones. Philadelphia Athletics -> Mackmen. J&P Coats -> Threadmen. Golden State Warriors -> Dubs. Dallas Burn -> Hoops. Fall River F.C. -> (Sam)Mark’s men. Not to be confused with marksmen as in sharpshooters. And do not include Fall River United because there is little justification for it and that is another two team article that needs cleanup. Libro0 (talk) 18:40, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support - terms like Fall River United, Fall River Rovers, NY Nationals, NY Giants, Brooklyn Wanderers are found in abundance in numerous publications in different cities and states just to name a few. The term Fall River Marksmen is virtually non-existent. Also unlike the above terms, Marksmen never appears in an official capacity. It is never in a league schedule, a scoreline, a box score, an association cup drawing, a game advertisement, or even league standings. For the run of seasons the team was around, the terms Marksmen, marksmen, "Marksmen", Markmen, Mark's men, etc. have been used as a journalist's artistic license which was common. The A's Connie Mack(Mackmen), Providence F.C.'s Sam Fletcher(Fletchermen), Boston Soccer Club's G.A. Wood(Woodsies). As for using This Year In American Soccer as a source you can look at 1923 as an example. Fall River F.C.'s first season. It talks about the U.S. Open Cup at a time it was called the National Challenge Cup. Another error is the mention of a team called the Paterson Silk Sox. That team never existed. It was Paterson F.C. The authors of the Archives have said "these are by no means authoritative". As well as "I find that the more research I do the more I find that things that have been long accepted as fact are wrong. So the more you probe the more inaccuracies you find. It's fun but time consuming, and the only way to do it is by looking through old newspapers on micro-film." If you oppose the change then find a legitimate reference that clearly states that the official name of the team is Fall River Marksmen. I'm still looking for one. Libro0 (talk) 09:42, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.