Talk:Enoch

People of Nod

Who was Enoch's mother. Where did the people of Nod come from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.12.116.138 (talk) 12:27, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Nod is a typo, it comes from a hebrew root meaning wandering, i.e. Cain went to the land of wandering, having been condemned to wander. There weren't any people there because it isn't a place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FDuffy (talk • contribs) 19:12, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Nod is not a typo, it is a term for the "Land of the Nomads" which, reasonably could be called so as a result of Cain's arrival (ie he is the original Nomad). What is not so clear is where the woman came from who was to be his wife and Enoch's mother. God had created Adam and Eve, who begat Cain and Able - that's it. No female children. So where did she come from? Also, how can Cain have become the founder of a City when it could only have consisted of three people? Begs the question, "Where did the people of Nod come from?" - women to marry and enough other folk to justify the term "City". -- RobinsonN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.250.65 (talk) 14:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Nod is a typo. It cannot mean "land of the Nomads", Nod is a proper noun and comes from the root wandering, it is very contorted to make it "Nomads".

As for Cain's wife, Classical Rabbinical sources said that Cain's wife was either Lilith or Lilith was her mother. Thus neatly avoiding the problem.

Also note that the bible has a tendency to avoid mentioning daughters whether or not they exist (due to ancient attitudes towards women), so there could be thousands of daughters and it still wouldn't mention them. Also note that the longevity of the ante-diluvians would mean that Cain was still alive and able to found a city in the time of Lamech, when there were many more individuals.

Also note that "found a city" does not require there to be a substantial population in their time. Romulus supposedly founded Rome, despite being a singular individual.

The Pilgrim Fathers founded America, but there really weren't that many of them at the time, just one boat's worth at most. --User talk:FDuffy 13:50, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

It may be a translation error, but the idea of a 'typo' in Biblical scripture is a little anachronistic. I still maintain that the Land of Nod, once translated as the "Land of Wandering", indicates a place where one would wander. Whether it is named this because Cain wandered through it after being expelled, or because there were already wanderers there is unclear and would help clarify whether there were other people at that time.

Rather than avoiding the problem, the Lilith option can be used to solve another problem, namely where, if the Jews are Gods chosen people, the Gentiles came from. The implication is that anyone not descended of Adam and Eve is part demon.

This tendency to selectively mention women is problematic in the extreme. There are those who suggest that women were once far more prominent, if not dominant, but references have been systematically removed from records since before Moses' time.

I accept all points made on the subject of founding the City. -- RobinsonN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.250.65 (talk) 11:12, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I seriously wonder what all this fuss about Cain's and Seth's wives is about, and what "problem" there should be. First, that the Bible doesn't mention something doesn't mean it didn't happen; only when the Bible would have mentioned explicitly that something didn't happen, things might look different. Second, the Bible incidentally does mention the necessary women, if we just rid ourselves of the two tendencies a) to equate "the Bible" with "the excerpts of the Bible sufficiently popular that we all have them in our heads", and b) to let ourselves overcome by moral shock arising from how we were formed in our own later time.

So, after the well-known stories about the Creation of the World and the Creation of Man and about Cain and Abel, there comes the already less-known story that Adam begat Seth as a replacement for Abel and forefather of Noah (thus so much for the popular misconception that all that was left of humanity was Cain's line). And then comes the "book of the generations of Adam" with the curious life-ages, which apparently noone has in his mind at all. If people had, how could the possibly overlook that there it stands, in black and white: "After the birth of Seth, Adam lived on for eight hundred years and begat sons and daughters." (Gen 5,4).

There were women around. The daughters of Adam.

And here comes the second obstacle in our minds, that we living in the 3rd millenium AD give so much credit to our own shock that we think at the first pages of the Bible, brother can't possibly have married sister. We even think, if someone does mention it, that it is atheist slander. But we had better read on, and find out that some centuries later (according to the internal dating), half-brother explicitly married half-sister (Abraham and Sarah), and Abraham is venerated as a holy Patriarch. So, in the first generation after Adam, when man was still "freshly created" and had not had much time to acquire genetical defects, and when the incentive to create more bonds of friendship between families was not present because there was just one family, and when no explicit commandment forbidding sibling intermarriage that we know of had yet been given, why shouldn't they have married one of their sisters? It really is that easy.--131.159.76.231 (talk) 13:17, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Guys, if anyone wants to discuss ways to improve this article, feel free, but these talk pages aren't for a general discussion of the topic. These aren't just freewheeling forum pages. Alephb (talk) 13:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

ADAM had Daughters

It helps if you know or read the bible. Genesis 5:4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters SO yeah, Adam was alive for 900 odd year so he had PLENTY of daughters. Only key children are mentions in the bible. -astenb

Category

People have placed this article in category:Jewish history. Are we suppose to believe that someone who lived 365 years and was taken by God to the sky was a historical character? --JLCA 12:43, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Biblical text?

How is it that the biblical text concerning Enoch walking with God that is quoted is not referenced? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.124.54.50 (talk) 21:21, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added the relevant citation. The portion you refer to is Genesis 5:22 through 5:24, but the relevant information in the article's introduction includes information through to 5:29. By the very fact that you're here writing on a Talk page means that you likely have some interest in the subject, and the info is right at the beginning of the Book, so remember to be bold! :) --Thisisbossi 03:04, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the last line in the first paragraph, "However, Hebrews 11:13 claims that Enoch (along with Abel, Noah, and Abraham) died." seems to be in error. Hebrews 11:5 makes it clear that Enoch did not die, but was "translated" (KJV) a term which is rendered "taken up," "carried away," or "transposed," in other translations. "By faith Enoch was taken away without experiencing death. He could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he won approval as one who pleased God." Heb 11:5 ISV. DaveBoyd 2:44PMCDT 03122012.

Curious omissions

I find it interesting that the article does not so much as nod towards Dr. John Dee and Edward Kelley, not to mention masonic lore. -- Cimon Avaro; on a pogostick. 12:10, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

What's more the curious structures of heavenly gates, windows and directions in Book of Enoch seem also to relate to some sort of Stonehenge-like structure, viz., (Laurence trans.) Chapter LXXI [Sect. XIII], if not Stonehenge herself. Dr. Dee mentions his own discovery of a pre-Enochian language; some his "actions" with Kelley more resemble the semi-political workings of the Witch of Endor than the inspirations of Enoch or the seeings of Emanuel Swedenborg or Andrew Jackson Davis. 71.51.77.3 (talk) 18:29, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

the church (and pronouns)

The article states that the book has "been rejected by the church". Shouldn't that be A church? And it would be nice to know which one(s) reject it.

That little portion of it is probably more encyclopedic than Wikipedic... "persuade us"? Who is "us"? I'm not going to go looking for the WP:xxx thing for this but I think it's generally frowned upon to use first person pronouns in any form?125.236.211.165 (talk) 07:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

It has been my understanding for some years that the compiler of the Bible, namely Jerome, rejected Enoch as a book therefor on account of the several, fourteen I think, versions he was confronted with during his compilation process. Thinking about that multiplicity of Enoch versions led me to conclude that it were probably indeed an ancient book even in Jerome's time, and that those versions had reached his cave by some very diverse routes. It is interesting to muse that perhaps the Apostles & Jesus had gathered some of those versions to use as compilations or recipes for their activities -- and that perhaps the migration of some of the Jerusalem survivors into Gaul were a basic migratory motion toward Stonehenge. The early "Church" in following Jerome, adopted his compilation as Vulgate and thus were Enoch's book(s) omitted -- nothing is ever so very simple, though, in reading any or all the remaining versions of Enoch, how indeed could one easily include the materials...69.69.19.79 (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

last paragraph, rabinnical literature, original research? relevance? Citations?

and other stuff

The Enoch son of Cain (Genesis 4:17) is not grandson of Adam. As Cain is not mentioned in the generations of Adam (Genesis 5:1-18) in the original text nor in any of the translations. This coincides with ancient documentation that Cain was never seed of Adam, pointing to a deeper and sinister origin of Cain in the Garden of Eden. The fruit that Lucifer tempted Eve to partake of in the Garden was not a fruit but carnal knowledge. Trees (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) have been always a reference of "people" in the bible (as "Descendants" are also referred as "Seed").

This is a very interesting passage, and personally I think it may be important to clarify it. "The Enoch son of Cain is not grandson of Adam."... What? Were Cain and Abel not sons of Adam? I'm not really disputing it, I'm no bible scholar... "As Cain is not mentioned in the generations of Adam" -- ahh, now we are getting clearer. Does that indeed necessarily negate the possibility that he is Adam's son? Sorry to shake the tree here. "nor in any of the translations" .. wait... what?? ANY of the translations? According to who exactly? How many translations are there? Original Research? WP:NOR "The fruit that Lucifer tempted Eve to partake of in the Garden was not a fruit but carnal knowledge." ... Again, according to who? The Bible in front of me (heavily translated as it may be) merely claims that the apple was an apple, no more, no less. Perhaps something in the way the original text is rendered shows that it is more than a mere apple but I don't think it's our job to deduce, speculate or assume this. Besides, if it were our job to do so, we would be researching or calculating the will of God - and not by inspired works, but by human effort. One could argue that the nature of the fruit is irrelevant and all that matters is their sin in disobeyed God's instruction to not eat it. In any event, I'm sure that this is discussed in the article where it is actually even relevant at all. "Trees (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil) have been always a reference of people in the bible" -- with all due respect, how do you know, and what does said tree exactly have to do with Enoch at this point?

So we have: - a discussion of Cain's origin, which is of questionable relevance - a discussion of botany, which is of questionable relevance - a question of metaphor, also hard to see how it relates to Enoch - no citations - possibly a lot of speculation

I don't really mean to point the finger and accuse ;-) .. If I thought that I could do better, I would. I was just passing through.

I think that a big first step would be to check all the "External Links" for relevance and try to use them as citations where appropriate. Then citations should be added to any other wanting parts of the article as this would help clarify it. Following that an editor (me!? oh no) could verify the relevance of each portion of the article.

It's a wonderful article, I'm very pleased to see it represented and learned a lot from it.. Thanks for your attention, I hope I haven't overly restated the obvious, stepped on anyone's toes, offended anyone etc.125.236.211.165 (talk) 07:48, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

EDIT: If an external link is a reference, then it should be indicated as a reference and not as an external link 125.236.211.165 (talk) 08:21, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Hindu Traditions?

I think there needs to be some explanation how Enoch could exist in Hindu traditions. I'm not familiar with any details of Hinduism, but I never learned of it utilizing any Judeo-Christian traditions. Did some parts of Jewish scripture get absorbed into the Hindu scriptures? If so, when and how? 69.95.232.2 (talk) 02:19, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

I've removed it, presumably added as a joke. Jooler (talk) 23:17, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I would guess that chakras and kundalini could be related to Enoch, but I have no way of knowing/proving this now. 69.157.239.212 (talk)

The Enochian seven "levels of Heaven," like the seven layers of Humbaba's armor (Epic of Gilgamesh) and the seven devils cast out of Mary Magdalen -- may well all be related to the seven chakra structures of Hinduism, i.e. internal, psychological as well as physiological reference places. Nowhere does one read of pandits or scholars claiming Enoch as an incarnation of Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva -- yet then very few are openly willing to claim Christ as an incarnation of Vishnu, either. 71.51.77.3 (talk) 18:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

A clue as to some tentative relationship may possibly be found in the linguistic closeness of "Idris" and "Indra" who seem to share some attributes as well. 69.69.19.79 (talk) 19:43, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Related figures

This article should improve the section which talks about figures who were thought to be related to Enoch. In particular :

• Enoch / Metatron ?

• Metatron / Holy Spirit ?

• Enoch / Wandering Jew ?

• Enoch / Count St. Germain ?

• Enoch / Proclus ?

• Enoch / Thoth ?

• According to the Figurists, Fu Xi was an incarnation of Enoch

• Etc ?

For Enoch-Metatron the relation is simple and it is already pointed out about 3 Enoch (to rewrite article 3 Enoch is in may to-do, but not a priority). About Enoch/Fu-Xi I dont know. I know only that according to many apocriphal litterature Enoch (as Fu-Xi) was the inventor of writing. A ntv (talk) 19:05, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Figurists are Jesuits priest during the 17th and 18th century and it was a huge Chinese Rites controversy that influence Catholic compatibility with local beliefs in China among the Catholics. The Jesuit Priest upheld these beliefs that was successful in penetrating China and serving at the Imperial court from 1689 until there was a decree by Clement XI and Benedict XIV to regard Confucious and local customs as superstitious and not social. This was reversed by Pope Pius XII. It affected the spread of Catholism in China from 1721 to 1939. All Figurists agreed upon the belief that a certain period in the Chinese history does not belong to the Chinese only but to all of mankind. The Jesuits furthermore believed that Chinese history dated back before the Flood and was therefore as old as European history. This made the Figurists believe that the two histories were equal in religious importance. According to the Figurists at the time, Noah's son Shem would have been to the Far East and would have brought with him the knowledge of Adam. Among their beliefs is the link between Enoch and Fu Xi. These are significant and historical decisions that changed a country's historical interaction with Rome. Joachim Bouvet publish some of the text with his conclusion that Chinese had known the whole truth of the Christian tradition in ancient times and that this truth could be found in the Chinese classics. User:Topsaint User talk:Topsaint 18:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

References to Enoch-Fu Xi linkages are

• Li, Shenwen, 2001, Stratégies missionnaires des Jésuites Français en Nouvelle-France et en Chine au XVIIieme siècle, Les Presses de l'Université Laval, L'Harmattan, ISBN 2747511235

• Etat présent de la Chine, en figures gravées par P. Giffart sur les dessins apportés au roi par le P. J. Bouvet (Paris, 1697)

• Portrait histoique de l'empereur de la Chine (Paris, 1697) User:Topsaint User talk:Topsaint 18:19, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The link of Islamic view of Enoch leads to an irrelevant page?--Zakkour (talk) 14:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Pillars of Enoch

There ought to be an article on the Pillars of Enoch, which could borrow from this site. [1] ADM (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Enoch and Judeo-Christian morality

Some ancient treatises of Judeo-Christian morality appear to have a strong Enochian element, for example in the opposition to abortion and contraception. It would be interesting to try and examine the influence of Enochian teachings in the moral aspect of Abrahamic religion. ADM (talk) 01:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Great Grandson of Adam?

Surely as son of Cain, the first Enoch was the grandson, not great grandson of Adam? I've amended the opening paragraph accordingly. If I've overlooked something here, please explain here and change it back. Rojomoke (talk) 10:19, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Wrong Enoch according to mainsteam interpretaion. 70.74.191.229 (talk) 07:36, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

rename article

Please consider renaming this article Enoch, son of Jared as per Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Bible#standardized_way_of_naming_articles_for_biblical_persons. Lemmiwinks2 (talk) 20:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

wrong icon

The icon does not represent enoch and elijah. It is st. Anthony and st. Paul the hermit. Please change that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.182.138 (talk) 21:53, 2 April 2011 (UTC)

The figures seem to be labeled ... can anyone read it/recognize the language? The12thMan (talk) 20:38, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Enoch/Hermes/Idris

There are different trusted sources those accept Prophet Idris was Hermes Trismegistus and as well as, suspects there shows he is Enoch? What is correct and according to what certainly? Wikipedia seems confusing in fact, Idris = Enoch (?). Davion 20:58, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not Wikipedia's fault; the subject is open to interpretation. What is generally considered facts: 1) Thoth was an Egyptian God; and scribe for the other gods 2) Hermes was a Greek God; and messenger for the other gods 3) Mercury was a Roman God; and messenger for the other gods 4) Hermes-Trismegistus became a fusion god in the Roman era combining the three gods (Hermes, Thoth, Mercury) into a new messenger god 5) Enoch was a Jewish Patriarch in the Tanakh 6) According to Jewish medieval apocrypha Enoch is Archangel Metatron, the voice of God 7) Idris was a pre-Islamic Prophet according to the Quran; his name means Interpreter Therefore Thoth could be Hermes, who could be Mercury, and they all could be Hermes Trismegistus, and perhaps also Enoch and/or Metatron, and Idris too. However, if you want to know what is correct and certain, you'll need to ask God who his voice/interpreter/scribe/messenger is. 70.74.191.229 (talk) 07:32, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

"Enoch Died"

I suggest removing the bolded text in the quote below:

The second mention is where the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews writes, "By faith Enoch was transferred, that he should not see death, and was not found, because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well." (Hebrews 11:5) Later in the chapter, Verse 13 adds that Enoch died, along with Abel, Noah, and Abraham.

The relevant portion of Hebrews 11:13 reads (in the NIV): "All these people were still living by faith when they died." Without a citation showing that scholars believe the passage is referring to Enoch's death, this probably should be deleted as original research. I would imagine commentators see Enoch as an exception to verse 13 since according to verse 5 he didn't see death; at least that is the view in Gill's, Matthew Henry's and other commentaries I've seen. The12thMan (talk) 20:30, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I have removed the text in bold - feel free to discuss. The12thMan (talk) 17:21, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Linguistic Oddity

At the beginning of the article it says that you spell 'Enoch' חֲנוֹךְ, in biblical hebrew and in modern/tiberian hebrew you pronounce it 'Hankok'. Surely it would be 'Kanok' as ח is the letter 'khet' as opposed to the similar looking letter 'Heh' (ה in hebrew). Is this oddity due to someone misreading the hebrew mistaking ח for ה so Kanok became Hanok or have I made the mistake? --Grammarbishop8 (talk) 13:28, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Enoch is not a "Character" but a MAN

I find it offensive that Enoch is referred to as a "Character" and not a man. It's insinuating he's a myth or cartoon. How can we change it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.139.190 (talk) 01:58, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

We probably don't.

As a person Enoch did not do anything to deserve a stand alone article. His only importance is as a character in the texts.

However, if you wanted to push your point, you would need to start by providing reliable published sources that indicate that a significant portion of the mainstream academics in the field hold that his importance is as a specific historical personage rather than a character in the texts. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:51, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Enoch, one of five Bible Raptures?

1. Enoch-Genesis 5:24 Hebrews 11:5

2. Elijah-taken up to heaven. 2 Kings2:1-15

3. little girl-she's not dead, only sleeping, raised by Jesus Mark 5:39-42

4. Lazarus-raised from the dead John 11:1-44

5. Jesus Christ-resurrection-arising from the dead John 5:28,29 John 6:39, 40, 44-ascension

There is suppose to be a whole generation that will not see Death...Matt24:34

the theme(the testimony) is to Please God....walk in the Spirit...if you walk in the flesh you cannot Please God... Romans 8:8 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.3.164.240 (talk • contribs)

Do you have a question or suggestion about improving the article? Otherwise please don't use this talk page as a forum. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 06:07, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Incomplete Medieval Christianity Section

The section on medieval Christianity ends in the Middle of a sentence without actually giving any information. What's going on here?--Ermenrich (talk) 14:03, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

It looks like the section original ended with this: "Fu Xi in China's ancient history is actually Enoch. " This was deleted by Ogress without explanation at 22:47, 14 June 2018.

Obviously leaving half a sentence here isn't really an option, but I question whether Jesuit missionaries interpretation of a Chinese emperor is really relevant to the article. Is there consensus for deleting the section entirely, replacing it with something relevant, or restoring the removed text--Ermenrich (talk) 14:34, 12 August 2018 (UTC)?

It appears I accidentally removed that, or had misunderstood the context. We should instead add the bit about the Figurists so it has some kind of context instead of being a very random observation. Ogress 16:27, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Excellent! I'm afraid I can't be much help on content here, but that certainly seems like a fitting solution.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:00, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

References

"Influence in Christianity"

This section seems to be entirely about the Book of Enoch. Wouldn't it belong better in that article? Mannanan51 (talk) 06:44, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 8 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: (non-admin closure) MOVED User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:57, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

There is consensus that the titular author of the Book of Enoch is the primary topic. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 18:57, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

---

• Enoch (ancestor of Noah) → Enoch
• Enoch → Enoch (disambiguation)

– He is the primary topic and has long term significance. Enoch (son of Cain) is a minor person in the Bible. See pageviews https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=en.wiki.x.io&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2015-07-01&end=2021-09-07&pages=Enoch%7CEnoch_(ancestor_of_Noah)%7CEnoch_(son_of_Cain)%7CEnoch_(given_name)%7CEnoch_(Agents_of_S.H.I.E.L.D.)%7CEnoch_(disambiguation)%7CEnoch_(surname)Sahaib3005 (talk) 16:31, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

Support, as this one is more notable mythological character. Dimadick (talk) 13:56, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Support. Enoch (Ancestor of Noah) is by far the more notable of the two. Although he's a minor character in the bible proper, he's very significant for the Book of Enoch and other Enochian literature.--Ermenrich (talk) 14:15, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Oppose. While it has more views, it only has less than x3 mores. Also, the two most viewed Enochs are from the same topic (bible) and from past experience with such things, this will lead to editors linking to the incorrect usages and readers landing on the wrong page. Having a disambiguation page as the base name prevents these links from happening. Gonnym (talk) 22:45, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support. This Enoch is significantly more notable than any other, according the the pageview analysis provided by the nominator. There no stories about the son of Cain. He's the great grandfather of Methushael and that's about it. 99to99 (talk) 18:08, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure why he should be notable for being the great grandfather of Methushael, about whom nothing is known. This Enoch is the father of Methuselah (with a slightly different spelling), who is known for being the longest lived individual in the Bible, per Gen 5:21-27.Havelock Jones (talk) 15:23, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support. This is who people usually mean when they say "Enoch". The other is obscure. It's clear from the Pageview analysis, and I would also guess that many of the hits for the son of Cain are looking for this page. The only complication is that I am not sure they really are different people, rather than alternative genealogies for the same individual, but that is a different debate.Havelock Jones (talk) 15:16, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support. Enoch is mentioned in many ancient sources other than the Bible (only 3 references there), though in sources not commonly accessed. Parenthetically linking him to Noah makes him tied into a Christian worldview (because only Christians seem to believe in Noah) and adds to bias since he was pre-Christian. Furthermore, he is NOT an ancestor of Noah, because Noah was his great grandson. We don't normally say the a great grandson is an an ancestor of his great grandfather, we say the great grandfather was an ancestor of the great grandson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EulerConstant (talk • contribs)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Why not merge Enoch with Idris?

It would make things much simpler. Bradyb0412 (talk) 03:06, 10 June 2024 (UTC)