Talk:Major depressive disorder
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Ideal sources for Wikipedia's health content are defined in the guideline Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (medicine) and are typically review articles. Here are links to possibly useful sources of information about Major depressive disorder.
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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Depression in childhood and adolescence was copied or moved into Major depressive disorder with this edit on 20:55, July 20, 2022. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2023
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This article must be flagged as having a geopolitical bias. It needs to be globalized beyond the United States and other English speaking countries or Europe. BennuPedia (talk) 20:34, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lizthegrey (talk) 22:48, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
Sourcing of Biomedical Content
[edit]You removed this: Research has found that unhappily married couples are at 3–25 times the risk of developing clinical depression.[1][2][3]
in favor of this: Couples that are unhappily married have up to 25 times the risk of developing clinical depression.[4]
That doesn't make sense.
You also removed: Should you have experienced four or more adverse childhood experiences, you're 3.2 to 4.0 times more likely to suffer from depression.[5]
claiming it was referenced elsewhere, and more recently. The description of ACEs in the article does not say 3.2 to 4. And I find your issue about the publication date very vague. Lau737 (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
References
- ^ Tatiana D. Gray, Matt Hawrilenko, and James V. Cordova (2019). "Randomized Controlled Trial of the Marriage Checkup: Depression Outcomes" (PDF).
{{cite web}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) - ^ Fink, Brandi C.; Shapiro, Alyson F. (March 2013). "Coping Mediates the Association Between Marital Instability and Depression, but Not Marital Satisfaction and Depression". Couple & family psychology. 2 (1): 1–13. doi:10.1037/a0031763. ISSN 2160-4096. PMC 4096140. PMID 25032063.
- ^ Maria R. Goldfarb & Gilles Trudel (2019). "Marital quality and depression: a review".
- ^ Goldfarb MR, Trudel G (May 6, 2019). "Marital quality and depression: a review". Marriage & Family Review. 55 (8). Routledge: Taylor & Francis Group: 737–763. doi:10.1080/01494929.2019.1610136. Citing among others: Weissman MM (April 1987). "Advances in psychiatric epidemiology: rates and risks for major depression". Am J Public Health. 77 (4): 445–51. doi:10.2105/ajph.77.4.445. PMC 1646931. PMID 3826462.
- ^ Anda RF, Felitti VJ, Bremner JD, Walker JD, Whitfield C, Perry BD, et al. (April 2006). "The enduring effects of abuse and related adverse experiences in childhood. A convergence of evidence from neurobiology and epidemiology". European Archives of Psychiatry and Clinical Neuroscience. 256 (3): 174–186. doi:10.1007/s00406-005-0624-4. PMC 3232061. PMID 16311898.
- We discussed these at length on your talk page; once you've processed everything there, we can continue (I'll be away from computer for several hours). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:00, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
- We assuredly did not bring up ACEs even once. And why you would bring back the "bad" statement after that lengthy discussion about how everything had to be secondary source, with review articles is beyond me. Lau737 (talk) 16:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
- What we've talked about at your user talk is information included in these links:
- Information about adverse childhood experiences is already in the article, cited to a newer and higher quality source. The information about unhappy marriages, as we discussed, needs secondary sourcing (it now has that, and is in the article using the citation style of this article). I don't know what the "bad" statement is. Perhaps WP:ONUS and WP:SS will help; this is a broad overview article that has been community vetted, and we don't need to provide excess detail on well-established items like childhood adversity; such detail can probably find a home in a different article. We don't have to necessarily repeat information across multiple articles, and we don't have to repeat detail in a higher level article that may be covered in a sub-article. In terms of how much detail to include, we are governed by due weight (in this case, of the highest quality recent secondary sources). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:07, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
- A statement like "four ACEs" increase the risk of depression 3.2 to 4.0 times is relevant to many pages like Major depressive disorder, Family disruption, or Happiness. It's not undue weight. Personally, I find the severity of the increase difficult to spot, even on the Adverse childhood experiences page.
- I do not agree with rephrasing all those findings into "an unhappy marriage increases the risk of depression." That's just common sense. People are going to fill in the blank thinking it's +5%, or something, not +200% or +2400% times. It's just a bad way of conveying information
- I referred to this edit: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186959470&oldid=1186959348 in which you changed 3-25 to "up to 25" and pointed the references to Weissman (1987) via Goldfarb after you told me that you thought that the 25 times study was old.
- You then proceeded to remove "25 times in its entirety," in an a subsequent edit described as " →Environmental: general"
- http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186984595&oldid=1186959470 Lau737 (talk) 13:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
- Lau737 could you please read WP:TALK and WP:THREAD? Following talk page guidelines will make your posts easier for others to work through. As per our discussion on your talk, I'm still waiting for a secondary source on the 3 to 25 (we have the 25 at Goldfarb), so I generalized the whole thing pending that. If you can provide a secondary source, I agree that expressing a range up to 25 is more useful. Similar on the childhood adverse events: if you have more than a 15-year-old primary study for the content, "Should you have experienced four or more adverse childhood experiences, you're 3.2 to 4.0 times more likely to suffer from depression" (PMID 16311898), more detail can be added, but depending on due weight in broad overviews of major depression, that content might find a better home at Epigenetics of depression. This is a broad summary article; see WP:ONUS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
- The additional sources were already secondary: http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Major_depressive_disorder&diff=1186959348&oldid=1186957111
- They were presented on my talk page before inclusion. One is from the Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, so peer-reviewed, the other is from Couple and Family Psychology, so peer reviewed.
- https://arammu.com/assets/research/MC%20Depression%20Outcomes.pdf
- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4096140/
- I think restricting the information to Epigenetics of depression ignores the psychological importance of adverse childhood experiences.
- Lau737 (talk) 16:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Could you please see WP:THREAD (I have again threaded for you). Both of those papers are primary studies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- They are assuredly not. One is Fink et al. (2013) pointing to O-Leary et al. (1994), the other is Gray et al. (2019) which points to Whisman (1999). Lau737 (talk) 10:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- So I wouldn't be averse to using the 10 to 25 times, but I still don't know where we're getting the three. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:17, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Yes they are primary studies in regard to their own conclusions, but they are secondary sources in regard to the conclusions of O'Leary and Whisman. Whisman concluded three times. Lau737 (talk) 11:25, 6 December 2023 (UTC)
- They are assuredly not. One is Fink et al. (2013) pointing to O-Leary et al. (1994), the other is Gray et al. (2019) which points to Whisman (1999). Lau737 (talk) 10:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- Could you please see WP:THREAD (I have again threaded for you). Both of those papers are primary studies. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:26, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
- Lau737 could you please read WP:TALK and WP:THREAD? Following talk page guidelines will make your posts easier for others to work through. As per our discussion on your talk, I'm still waiting for a secondary source on the 3 to 25 (we have the 25 at Goldfarb), so I generalized the whole thing pending that. If you can provide a secondary source, I agree that expressing a range up to 25 is more useful. Similar on the childhood adverse events: if you have more than a 15-year-old primary study for the content, "Should you have experienced four or more adverse childhood experiences, you're 3.2 to 4.0 times more likely to suffer from depression" (PMID 16311898), more detail can be added, but depending on due weight in broad overviews of major depression, that content might find a better home at Epigenetics of depression. This is a broad summary article; see WP:ONUS. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
- We assuredly did not bring up ACEs even once. And why you would bring back the "bad" statement after that lengthy discussion about how everything had to be secondary source, with review articles is beyond me. Lau737 (talk) 16:10, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
Extraordinary claim
[edit]Please provide a source for this extraordinary claim:
"Major depressive episodes often resolve over time, whether or not they are treated."
It is unsourced and dangerous. Why would people seek help if it resolves over time?
- The citation immediately after the claim includes "Since major depression is often a self-limiting disorder that tends to resolve over time...". The claim as-is appears to have existed in the article since at least Feb 2022 so I am hesitant to adjust. Any suggestions are welcome.--Commander Keane (talk) 08:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
FA concerns
[edit]As part of WP:URFA/2020, this article has been noticed for WP:FAR in 2020 and 2022. Circling back onto it now, I see that the article has an "update needed" orange banner at the top of the page. Is anyone actively maintaining this article, and able to address this banner? If not, should this go to WP:FAR? Z1720 (talk) 02:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- @Z1720 Updating the information would just include changing some of the older referances (2014 and below) to newer ones. I don't believe SandyGeorgia is super active anymore but some other more recently active editors who have contributed to the article are Casliber, Boghog, and Cosmic Latte. Not sure if anyone else has interest in the article but I could help with updating the article as well. IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 13:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- @IntentionallyDense: I'm happy if editors step up to update the article. I point out the previous notices because it seems like this article is the type that needs constant monitoring and updating: if editors are willing to do so, that's great. If not, a discussion about its FA status might be warranted. I also think it would be really cool, after updates are complete, to nominate this for WP:TFA as it is an important topic of interest to many users. Z1720 (talk) 14:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Just saw this. I'll take a look (again) as well. And probably invite Tobiasi0 to take a look to see when they are statisfied with the updates and removing the tag. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Sounds good. If I get around to it today I can also try updating some of the citations. IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 19:50, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Just saw this. I'll take a look (again) as well. And probably invite Tobiasi0 to take a look to see when they are statisfied with the updates and removing the tag. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- @IntentionallyDense: I'm happy if editors step up to update the article. I point out the previous notices because it seems like this article is the type that needs constant monitoring and updating: if editors are willing to do so, that's great. If not, a discussion about its FA status might be warranted. I also think it would be really cool, after updates are complete, to nominate this for WP:TFA as it is an important topic of interest to many users. Z1720 (talk) 14:31, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
Okay to help with this I'm going to compile a list of refs that should ideally be replaced (excluding guidlines and historical articles per WP:MEDDATE:
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ref 4: Kessler RC, Bromet EJ (2013)
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ref 29: "Depression treatment for the elderly"
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ref 92: "Call for action over Third World depression". ref 93: Sharp LK, Lipsky MS (September 2002).
ref 94: Zimmerman M, Chelminski I, Posternak M (September 2004). ref 95: McPherson A, Martin CR (February 2010).
ref 96: Osman A, Bagge CL, Gutierrez PM, Konick LC, Kopper BA, Barrios FX (December 2001)
ref 97: Cepoiu M, McCusker J, Cole MG, Sewitch M, Belzile E, Ciampi A (January 2008)
ref 98: Dale J, Sorour E, Milner G (2008).
ref 99: Orengo CA, Fullerton G, Tan R (October 2004).
ref 101: Reid LM, Maclullich AM (2006).
ref 102: Katz IR (1998)
ref 103: Wright SL, Persad C (December 2007).
ref 104, 105, 106, 117: Sadock 2002
ref 108: Gruenberg AM, Goldstein RD, Pincus HA (2005)
ref 113: Diagnostic Criteria for Major Depressive Disorder and Depressive Episodes"
ref 114: Parker GF (1 June 2014).
ref 116: Parker 1996
ref 119: Carta MG, Altamura AC, Hardoy MC, Pinna F, Medda S, Dell'Osso L, et al. (June 2003)
ref 120: Rapaport MH, Judd LL, Schettler PJ, Yonkers KA, Thase ME, Kupfer DJ, et al. (April 2002).
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ref 134: Cuijpers P (20 September 2012)
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ref 136: Cuijpers P, Muñoz RF, Clarke GN, Lewinsohn PM (July 2009).
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ref 144: Josefsson T, Lindwall M, Archer T (April 2014)
ref 145: Bridle C, Spanjers K, Patel S, Atherton NM, Lamb SE (September 2012).
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ref 147: Taylor G, McNeill A, Girling A, et al. (February 2014)
ref 148: Khan A, Faucett J, Lichtenberg P, Kirsch I, Brown WA (30 July 2012).
ref 149: Thase ME (1999)
ref 150: Cordes J (2013).
ref 153: Cuijpers P, van Straten A, Smit F (December 2006).
ref 155: Childhood Depression.
ref 157: Becker SJ (2008).
ref 158: Almeida AM, Lotufo Neto F (October 2003).
ref 159: Paykel ES (February 2007)
ref 161: Beck et al. 1987
ref 162: Coelho HF, Canter PH, Ernst E (December 2007)
ref 163: Khoury B, Lecomte T, Fortin G, et al. (August 2013).
ref 164: Jain FA, Walsh RN, Eisendrath SJ, Christensen S, Rael Cahn B (2014).
ref 165: Simkin DR, Black NB (July 2014)
ref 167: Dworetzky J (1997).
ref 168: Doidge N, Simon B, Lancee WJ, et al. (2002)
ref 169: Barlow & Durand 2005,
ref 170: de Maat S, Dekker J, Schoevers R, et al. (2007).
ref 175: Thase ME (December 2006).
ref 176: Royal Pharmaceutical Society of Great Britain 2008
ref 177: Whooley MA, Simon GE (December 2000).
ref 178: Zisook S, Rush AJ, Haight BR, Clines DC, Rockett CB (February 2006).
ref 179: Papakostas GI, Thase ME, Fava M, Nelson JC, Shelton RC (December 2007)
ref 180: Duff G (31 May 2006)
ref 192: Nelson JC, Devanand DP (April 2011).
ref 193: Palmer BF, Gates JR, Lader M (November 2003).
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ref 195: Anderson IM (April 2000)
ref 196: Krishnan KR (2007).
ref 197: Bonnet U (2003).
ref 199: Hammad TA (16 August 2004)
ref 201: Gunnell D, Saperia J, Ashby D (February 2005).
ref 202: Fergusson D, Doucette S, Glass KC, et al. (February 2005).
ref 203: Stone M, Laughren T, Jones ML, et al. (August 2009).
ref 204: FDA Proposes New Warnings About Suicidal Thinking, Behavior in Young Adults Who Take Antidepressant Medications
ref 205: Pharmaceuticals and Medical Devices Safety Information
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ref 228: Surgeon General (1999)
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ref 252: Holma KM, Holma IA, Melartin TK, Rytsälä HJ, Isometsä ET (February 2008).
ref 253: Kanai T, Takeuchi H, Furukawa TA, et al. (July 2003).
ref 254: "Depression, Major: Prognosis".
ref 255: Culpepper L, Muskin PR, Stahl SM (September 2015)
ref 256: Geddes JR, Carney SM, Davies C, et al. (February 2003).
ref 257: Posternak MA, Miller I (October 2001).
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ref 259:Whiteford HA, Harris MG, McKeon G, et al. (10 August 2012).
ref 260: Cassano P, Fava M (October 2002).
ref 263: Strakowski S, Nelson E (2015)
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ref 266: Rush AJ (2007).
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ref 268: Schulman J, Shapiro BA (2008)
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ref 275: Rickards H (March 2005)
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ref 281: Andrews G (July 2008).
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ref 310: Maloney F (3 November 2005)
ref 311: Karasz A (April 2005).
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ref 313: Parker G, Cheah YC, Roy K (June 2001).
ref 322: Andreasen NC (2008).
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ref 330: Paykel ES, Hart D, Priest RG (December 1998)
That's all for now. Feel free to edit my comment to cross off items on this list. IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 22:13, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
- Oh cool. Some will be able to be updated and some won't - will start looking soon. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:43, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah I didn't really pay a lot of attention to how all of the sources were used so some may be fine as is. Some of these (such as the dsm 4 refs) should be easy as newer editions of the books have been published since. Another strategy would be to see what papers cite the studies and update from there. IntentionallyDense (Contribs) 04:26, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
- Oh cool. Some will be able to be updated and some won't - will start looking soon. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:43, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
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