Talk:Aryeh Tzvi Frumer

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A fact from Aryeh Tzvi Frumer appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 10 September 2012 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Rabbi Aryeh Tzvi Frumer, a leading rosh yeshiva in prewar Poland, was forced to work in a Warsaw Ghetto factory making footwear for German soldiers?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2012/September.

Wikipedia

Rename to a more common transliteration

I had previously nominated this page for deletion (see debate at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arye Tzvi Frommer). After Bachrach44 pointed out that the lack of sourcing was due mostly to a transliteration problem, I withdrew the nomination.

However, this still leaves us with the situation that the current title of the page is a transliteration of a hewbrew name that is not the most common name out there. It seems to me that this will create difficulties for people who are trying to find this article on Wikipedia. So I suggest the following:

Change the name of the article to a more common transliteration.
Add redirects for the other, fairly common, transliterations.

Unfortunately I am not entirely sure which transliteration would be the best choice for the article title. Bachrach44 came up with some options already:

Aryeh Tzvi Fromer
Aryeh Tzvi Frumer
Aryeh Zvi Frumer

Should it be one of these? Or something else? -- BenTels (talk) 13:48, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not an expert on transcription from Hebrew. Which version is most used by sources that discuss this person in a latin alphabet? (Preferably English).

We could then add redirects to that title, from any other plausible transcription (assuming there are no conflicts with other possible articles). If sources use a mixture of transcriptions then we should have a redirect from the less common ones to the most common one. If there are any standardised transcription rules which give a different result to that used by sources, those results probably deserve redirects too. bobrayner (talk) 13:56, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not too sure why this is worthy of a fuss, it's a minor point. Otherwise it gets too complicated and it's not worth it. This is why:

Please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew), Wikipedia:IPA for Hebrew, Hebrew phonology for a summary of what has transpired in the last 10+ years on WP.
In this case, to be precise, the first part of his name (i.e. his first two given names are Hebrew) but his last name (i.e. surname) is not Hebrew but Yiddish/Germanic/Polish/Eastern European and could have yet more variations in web sources and books depending on the local accent, see Yiddish language and Wikipedia:IPA for Yiddish.
Yiddish varied, the way Lithuanian and Russian Jews (in North-West Eastern Europe) spoke it is vastly different to the way Polish and Hungarian Jews (in South East/Central Europe) pronounced it. Nowadays Yiddish and even Hebrew have definitely been and are influenced by the Modern Hebrew in Israel and English in America depending on where those Yiddish and Hebrew speakers and users live.
There is no "one way" to enforce or even induce correct Hebrew and Yiddish transliterations on WP because there are Jews who come from from various parts of the globe, and there are just too many articles.
The Sephardim ("Spanish/Oriental") and the Ashkenazim ("German/European") Jews differ in the way they pronounce Hebrew words and there is a vast difference between the Modern Hebrew language versus Biblical Hebrew spoken by Talmudic scholars as well as "old-fashioned" secular academic ways of pronouncing it. Again, please see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Hebrew) etc.
But this need not be complicated, just choose one spelling and stick with it and redirect all the rest to the one you choose, it really makes no difference because the man did have any contact with the English language and his name would and could be legitimately spelled differently and still be correct.
By the way, the Arabic language is also flexible when transliterated, see Help:Arabic#Transliteration and Wikipedia:Arabic names.
Therefore feel free to transliterate to whatever feels most acceptable as it will not make an iota of difference to the substance of the article. IZAK (talk) 20:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Ben, for the invitation to comment. Like Bob said, I think WP:COMMONNAME is the deciding factor here. As an unscientific measure, "Aryeh Tzvi Frommer" gets 48 hits on Google; "Aryeh Tzvi Fromer" gets 7; "Aryeh Zvi Frumer" also gets 7, but Google wants to redirect me to searching for a "Tz-" variant of the name (I think Tzadi is almost always translated as "Tz" rather than "Z"; Shabbtai Zevi being one exception) while "Aryeh Tzvi Frumer" gets a whopping 3,000. Hence, I strongly support moving this article to Aryeh Tzvi Frumer.

As a side note, "Aryeh Zevi Frommer" gets a handful of results as well, so we can redirect that to the new location also. Evanh2008 ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:03, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I expanded the articles with references. The English-language references spelled it "Frommer" or "Frumer". The latter is consistent with the spelling of his name in Hebrew, פרומר. Just to complicate things, I notice that on his stationery as a Rav in Sosnowiec it is spelled "Fromer" in English. We could include that as an "alternate spelling" in the lead. Yoninah (talk) 21:04, 18 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow - good eye! --Bachrach44 (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion

Okay, so I'm seeing some strong arguments above for "Aryeh Tzvi Frumer" as primary article name. So here's my suggestion:

Move the article to Aryeh Tzvi Frumer
Create redirects for

These in addition to the redirects that already exist, of course. I'll wait a few days and make the change around 2012-08-24 if there are no disagreements. -- BenTels (talk) 10:53, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Can you just go ahead and do it now? I just nominated the article for DYK. I'm making the name change in the article text. Yoninah (talk) 12:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Technically I suppose I can, but I think I should give potential responders more time. The problem with WP of course is that you don't know when people will log in. -- BenTels (talk) 15:17, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ben, there's no reason to wait for such a minor issue. I'm going to be bold and move it now. Yoninah (talk) 17:58, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize for vanishing from wikipedia when people were trying to include me in this discussion. Although I'm personally fond of Zvi over Tzvi, but since "Aryeh Tzvi Frumer" seems to be the most used (per google), so I think Yoninah's move was for the best. --Bachrach44 (talk) 21:36, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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