Talk:2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births

This article was nominated for deletion on 11 November 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

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The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:

"Israel's Measures Intended to Prevent Births within Gaza Strip [EN/AR] - occupied Palestinian territory | ReliefWeb". reliefweb.int ReliefWeb. 30 March 2024.
Irfan, Bilal; Abu Shammala, Abdallah; Saleh, Khaled (November 2024). "Will there be a future for newborns in Gaza?". The Lancet. 404 (10464): 1725–1726. doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(24)02249-9. The ongoing Israeli military assault on Gaza has led to an alarming humanitarian catastrophe, whereby the onset of famine is coupled with a deterioration of maternal health services, severely impacting the wellbeing of pregnant women and of children.
"Women and newborns bearing the brunt of the conflict in Gaza, UN agencies warn". www.who.int World Health Organization. 3 November 2023.
"There are 180 babies born in Gaza every day but doctors say a safe labour is nearly 'impossible': Pregnant mothers in Gaza reportedly facing cesareans without anaesthetic, emergency hysterectomies and death". www.abc.net.au ABC News (Australia). 28 December 2023.
"France and the UN join hands to strengthen maternal and neonatal health services in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank". www.unicef.org UNICEF. 16 April 2024.
"Israel's Measures Intended to Prevent Births within Gaza Strip" (PDF). PCHR.

Rescope to include pregnancy?

I came to this article while wondering if we had an article covering the challenges of pregnancy and childbirth in Gaza. This article seems very related, but the current title "2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births" is not in scope. For example, complications in at-term births (i.e. not preterm births) would not be in this article's scope. One option is to retitle this to "Pregnancy and childbirth in 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza". Alternatively, we can have separate articles like "2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births", "2023–2024 Gaza Strip miscarriages" etc. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:42, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@VR, I very strongly agree that we need a page on that topic, if we still don't have one? Pregnancy and neonates in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza might be better because Pregnancy and childbirth in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza doesn't strictly cover care of premature babies? Or "Reproductive and neonatal healthcare in the 2023 Israeli attack on Gaza" because "pregnancy and neonates" by itself includes pregnant women and babies killed by guns or bombs, but they belong in Casualties of the Israel–Hamas war? Industrial Metal Brain (talk) 03:42, 24 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NEWSBLOG, WP:NOTNEWS, WP:USERGENERATED

This article uses some sources that are live updates from a liveblog. Per WP:NEWSBLOG, "Some newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host online pages, columns or rolling text they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because blogs may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process."

Also per WP:NOTNEWS, “Wikipedia should not offer first-hand news reports on breaking stories." So I will trim some of this breaking news type of content. I also deleted a couple WP:USERGENERATED sources that were tweets. Wafflefrites (talk) 04:40, 12 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Embryos

There isn't a reason to include this section in this article. The fact that a topic is broadly associated with another topic doesn't warrant it to have its own section in an article, this isn't an article on children or births it's on pre-term births specifically. Originalcola (talk) 11:34, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smallangryplanet Originalcola (talk) 11:35, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Originalcola Are you seriously suggesting that embryos are unrelated to pre-term births? Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:58, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not. This just isn't an article on embryos or the individual incident mentioned; it's clearly far beyond the scope of this article. Originalcola (talk) 12:09, 6 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Originalcola The article is about preterm births and the embryos destroyed were destined for IVF implantation, it's absolutely relevant in an article discussing the dangers faced by expectant or soon-to-be-expectant mothers in the Strip. I've restored the content (I didn't see your message on the 6th) for the time being. WP:RELNOT suggests that we consider the relationship of seemingly unrelated content to the article in question when making this kind of decision. In this case, we know through abundant RS that the status of viable embryos is relevant to preterm births (we cover it in our article about preterm births in general) and so there is a relationship between the destruction of said embryos and the topic of the article. Smallangryplanet (talk) 09:03, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Smallangryplanet It doesn't matter what the embryos were destined for, this isn't an article on IVF implantation or the dangers faced by expectant or soon-to-be-expectant mothers; this is an article on pre-term births specifically. WP:RELNOT is an essay that doesn't state that we consider unrelated content, it describes ignoring editing rules to keep relevant content. It directly states that "Content must be directly about the subject of the article. Claiming relevance because of an indirect relationship to the subject of the article suggests the item is more about something else than it is about the subject of the article". This is the exact opposite of "consider the relationship of seemingly unrelated content to the article in question".

None of the news articles cited mention pre-term births or the potential effect of this on pre-term births, there's nothing in any of the news articles cited linking the raids to pre-term births. The section you've linked to on pre-term births has one sentence mentioning reducing risk of pre-term births with IVF. There are 3 sentences total on IVF on that page. The destruction of embryos precludes IVF and any kind of birth, making it further removed from the topic of this article. Originalcola (talk) 19:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the third opinion, would it be objectionable to remove the content about embryos for now and propose to rename the article to re-scope it? Alternatively, you could try and include the content in a different and potentially new article if it’s independently significant. I can see in this talk page that it’s been discussed before. Originalcola (talk) 20:21, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the section regarding embryos should remain in that it adds important information and context. I would suggest renaming this article to "Pregnancy and childbirth in the 2023–2024 Gaza War" to broaden its scope and accommodate for more information. DocZach (talk) 06:34, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Originalcola @DocZach I agree, I think a rename would make a lot of sense here. Do we think this can be BOLD'ly changed, or shall I spin up a move discussion? Smallangryplanet (talk) 08:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The deletion discussion I started seems looks like it's going to result in a keep, but I'd still wait a few hours to a day so that we don't start a discussion on a page which could be merged/deleted. Originalcola (talk) 11:09, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I'll circle back around to this in a day or so. Smallangryplanet (talk) 11:14, 11 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Response to third opinion request:

I agree with Originalcola that the embryos fall outside the scope of this article. Perhaps the article topic could be broadened to include the information about embryos? A case could be made that this article is too narrow in focus and could be expanded to include the information in dispute. Nemov (talk) 14:13, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

@Genabab - My partial revert in the lead was because neither the CBC or ABC news article claims that the destruction of embryos added to concerns about preterm births in Gaza. Such a claim is simply either original research or an attempted synthesis of the 2 sources implying something not directly stated in the sources. I'm not going to remove the section on destruction of embryos again until there is a consensus in the talk page, but regardless of whether the embryo section remains or not that should be struck from the lead. Originalcola (talk) 04:58, 10 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 December 2024

It has been proposed in this section that 2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births be renamed and moved to Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy and childbirth in the Gaza Strip.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births → Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy and childbirth in the Gaza Strip – Broadens the scope of the article to be able to logically continue including material that is already present in the article (such as that of embryos, miscarriages, etc). Also, is consistent with other articles such as the one about "Effect of the Israel-Hamas war on children in the Gaza Strip." DocZach (talk) 00:00, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatively, other options for renaming could be:

Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy and childbirth in the Gaza Strip (current)
Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy in the Gaza Strip (childbirth could fall under pregnancy)
Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy and childbirth in Gaza
Effects of the Israel-Hamas war on pregnancy in Gaza

DocZach (talk) 00:43, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support redirect to Effect_of_the_Israel–Hamas_war_on_children_in_the_Gaza_Strip#Premature_babies It doesn't make sense for this to exist since there is a central article. 190.219.101.225 (talk) 02:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The deletion discussion already failed. This article has enough source material to remain, as was determined here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2023–2024 Gaza Strip preterm births.

This is about whether to rename the article or not to expand its scope. DocZach (talk) 05:34, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support option 4. Overall support the move per nom, but more specifically number 4 as the best concise option given for the target. TiggerJay (talk) 06:42, 12 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]