Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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WikiProject Football was featured in a WikiProject Report in the Signpost on 3 March 2008.

This WikiProject was featured on the WikiProject report at the Signpost on 9 July 2012.

On 4 August 2022, it was proposed that this page be moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Association football. The result of the discussion was not moved.

FIFA Series

Hey, Elditya 029 (talk · contribs) is adding the FIFA Series to the honours section of footballers. It's a friendly competition which should not be added or? Kante4 (talk) 08:58, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple champions? What a strange setup, I am not sure I quite get the tournament style. Govvy (talk) 12:30, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's definitely not an honour, the 'competition' is just a series of friendly matches. Should be removed from all honours sections. S.A. Julio (talk) 20:23, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also (apart from Egypt Series), these are 4-team round robin, but each team plays only 2 others. -- SuperJew (talk) 21:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removed it from all articles i could find. Kante4 (talk) 17:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Christian Wood (soccer)

I was trying to do some searches on the guy, but too many other people with the same name were getting in the way of searches, I was considering sending the article to AfD, unless someone else decides to do that, or someone can find decent sources or not. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 18:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm struggling - most sources about the basketball player? I suggest send to AFD. Giant Snowman 19:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that there are two redirect targets as well, All-time Rochester Rhinos roster and 2022 Rochester New York FC season. Since he only played one season for one team. Geschichte (talk) 11:02, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alas, I am not impressed with either of those for a redirect, does the season article even pass NSEASONS? The all time roster, is that nessessary? It's just a list, doing what a category already does. And certainly lacks sourcing. Anyway, I've decided to send the article to AfD, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Christian Wood (soccer). Cheers. Govvy (talk) 12:38, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 'Roster' is probably the best target. Giant Snowman 18:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This guy seems even less notable. Geschichte (talk) 07:49, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal for a Leeds United task force

Hi, all. If you are interested in helping to improve coverage of articles related to Leeds United, please consider joining a proposed task force. I've created a pilot page which illustrates some objectives. Any questions, please ask. Thank you. PearlyGigs (talk) 09:46, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As someone who has been heavily involved in the Manchester United task force over the years, I'll say that I doubt a Leeds United task force would get sufficient membership to warrant creation. I suggest you create to-do lists in your own userspace. What would creating a task force actually help you to do that you can't do without one? – Pee Jay 17:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with PeeJay, this project is a task force, if you ever need help with something just ask here. Everyone else has different clubs, but overall, a lot of people have resources that can help you if you're looking for something. Govvy (talk) 17:47, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Results-by-round

Back with a vengeance, thanks to ChampsRT (talk · contribs). I believe our stance was that these are useless due to fixtures being postponed and being played out of sync, hence giving a false snapshot of league positions? Seasider53 (talk) 12:31, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If someone wants to know a team's results by round, they can just look at the list of results. It's a pointless duplication of information. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 12:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't bother me so much, but it is kinda replication of data. There are also grounds you could class it as a breach of WP:OR. But I honestly can't remember if we had a consensus against them or not. Govvy (talk) 12:43, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that you can look at the list of results, but wouldn't it be more clear to summarise it all in a table? Lets say if you want to check out how a team did in the previous season, you can also see what position they were in a a certain point of the season and how many points they had at that stage.

As for fixtures postponed, we can always adjust the rounds played, and we can record the positions either after the weekend fixtures or the weekday ones. I believe the results by round is a clear and concise way to show how a team performed in a season. ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 00:35, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I recall being a part of the previous discussion, and the consensus at the time was that "results by round" tables are discouraged precisely for the reasons cited by Seasider53. For example, if the Manchester Derby were to be postponed, the "Round X" results of Man U and Man City would not be accurate. The match is still officially part of "Round X" even if it is played during the week of "Round Q" two months later. While not WP:OR, it introduces misleading information since it appears that a result was recorded during the season before it actually occurred. — Jkudlick ⚓ (talk) 00:54, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If they are postponed, we can change the order of the round numbers, such as moving round 18 to be behind round 27 etc. As for the rankings for that round, we can record the position at the time where the match finished for the affected teams, whilst the unaffected teams will have their position recorded on the next gameweek they play. ChampsRT (Profile • Talk) 05:36, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

All of the above sounds very much like OR to me. It would be valid to show the team's position as at specific listed dates, but basing things on this nebulous concept of "gameweeks"/"round numbers" and arbitrarily moving matches around just smacks of OR -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:31, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you wish to include a team's league position after the match, there are ways to do that within the list of results and that should achieve your aims without the need for an extra table. See 2023–24 Kilmarnock F.C. season#Premiership as one example. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 08:55, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of domestic football league broadcast deals by country

Would anyone object to this article going to AfD? Govvy (talk) 13:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nm, I decided to send it to AfD anyway if anyone is interested. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of domestic football league broadcast deals by country. Govvy (talk) 17:17, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

RfC at WikiProject Sports

An RfC at WikiProject Sports is currently seeking a consensus on whether images of all venues in a tournament should be presented in a tournament article's § Venues section. Feel free to join in and share your thoughts! — AFC Vixen 🦊 15:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

List of foreign footballers in the Persian Gulf Pro League

Is this normal? I've never seen a list of foreigners in the Premier League, seems wrong somehow. Govvy (talk) 08:16, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's at List of foreign Premier League players. There are loads of such articles -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:29, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Blimey, that Premier League one is outdated, I don't know, seems pointless to me, because the list would be off the chart and paradoxical. Govvy (talk) 08:50, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has no sources at all (as does its partner 1920-2000 one) and would almost certainly be deleted at AfD unless such a source exists. Black Kite (talk) 09:19, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's highly unlikely that a single source exists listing all foreign PL players for its entire 30+ year history, so you'd potentially be looking at individually sourcing well over 2500 players, a number which is of course going to continue to balloon given that dozens of new foreign players join the PL every season..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I stand corrected, the one and only source in the article does actually allow users to bring up all PL players of any given nationality using filters. There's probably still the question of whether we need an article listing nearly 3000 players.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Would be perfectly fine with deleting these for every league. They're mostly just trivia- especially for large leagues like the Premier League where a large percentage of players are foreign. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like for some leagues, such as the Premier League, where foreign players are a large percentage and there are no (afaik?) restrictions on foreign players, there isn't much point to such an article. However, there are many smaller leagues which have restrictions on number of foreign players and then such pages are more managable and also more notable. --SuperJew (talk) 10:30, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not to mention the constant need to maintain these lists, shall we have a quick consensus, on who is for deleting, to start with List of foreign Premier League players? Govvy (talk) 10:52, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is that any different than the constant need to maintain squad lists (both in club articles and in the navboxes)? I don't disagree about the need, but I don't think it is a relevant consideration if to keep or delete. --SuperJew (talk) 11:56, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Joao Ortiz#Requested move 9 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Joao Ortiz#Requested move 9 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:01, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs#Requested move 9 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:2023 USL Championship Playoffs#Requested move 9 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jack Clarke (footballer, born 2000) stats?

They don't much up with soccerway however I think they match up with soccerbase, maybe someone who is better with stats can double check its all okay. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 10:42, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's just that Soccerway include playoffs in with regular season matches, but Soccerbase don't and neither does Wikipedia. The stats look OK to me. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:13, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

k, don't know why soccerway does that, cheer Struway. Govvy (talk) 17:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it's a common problem. For players outside the UK, I often use worldfootball.net to differentiate play-off appearances. Robby.is.on (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. Soccerway is arguably the most reliable source overall since it has reports on basically all the games that are accurate, but yeah they tend to mush stuff up and there are occasionally some small errors. In leagues where there are play-offs, I always look up the league season and see what the play-offs games were and then look to see if the player played in those games. Checking out other sources is a good option too-- Soccerbase, I like. WorldFootball.net is often erroneous for obscure players but for players that are well-document, it's good. FootballDatabase.eu can be an option too although I'm not sure how accurate it is, it's hit or miss. Paul Vaurie (talk) 10:07, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. FootballDatabase.eu is on our list of deprecated sources at WP:WPFLINKSNO. Robby.is.on (talk) 10:26, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish club names

I was prompted to look up Gunnar Gren a few days ago and was frustrated by the state of the article, I did not read long before being met with the line 'He made his Allsvenskan debut on 1 May 1938 against Malmö, which resulted in a scoreless draw.'

As a reader, I have no idea which Malmö club it was Gunnar Gren made his debut against in 1938 without clicking the link unless I happen to know which Malmö club played in the same series as Gårda BK in 1938, a degree of knowledge that it is very ambitious to expect from any reader. Were they in the same series as Malmö FF, IFK Malmö or Malmö BI? I have no idea, and neither will any other reader.

As it turns out the article used to specify that it was Malmö FF Gren debuted against, but someone has recently shortened all the Swedish club names in the article, creating the ambiguity.

Now, I could just edit that line in the Gunnar Gren article and move on, but this is a persistent issue I have come across in multiple articles about Swedish football, where one or a small number of editors shorten Swedish club names from the formal and unambiguous full name to the ambiguous and informal short name, for example someone recently edited the article on Jimmy Thelin to change all mentions of Jönköpings Södra IF from the specific and formal name to the non-specific (and arguably incorrect) 'Jönköping'.

These edits mostly seem to be made by one or a small number of editors with no knowledge of the Swedish language and little or no contextual knowledge about Swedish football (shortening the names without removing the possessive s at the end of many of them, like shortening Djurgårdens IF to 'Djurgårdens' instead of Djurgården, is a dead give-away that the person(s) making these edits does not have even a very basic understanding of Swedish)

Swedish football clubs do not 'own' location names, referring to Malmö FF as just 'Malmö', like in the Gunnar Gren article that sparked this complaint, is not only confusing to the reader but also an expression of the biases of the editor. Malmö FF, IFK Malmö, Malmö City FC and historical clubs like Malmö BI all have equal claim to the name of the city.

To make a comparison with English football, talking about Malmö FF as 'Malmö' is akin to talking about Manchester City as Manchester or Sheffield United as Sheffield, it works in informal contexts where other contextual cues makes it clear which club is being referred to, like in a conversation with friends or during a match broadcast, in formal contexts it is confusing and biased, fans of Manchester United and Sheffield Wednesday are bound to take offence. It is absolutely not acceptable in an encyclopaedic context where clarity and neutrality is important.

Malmö is not a unique case, in fact it is the norm in Swedish football. 'Göteborg' can refer to IFK Göteborg, but also to women's club Göteborg FC, or Göteborgs FF, occasionally to GAIS, and to historic clubs like Göteborgs IK or Göteborgs AIK, who Gunnar Gren played for. Beyond that, there are three different clubs named Trelleborg, three different clubs from Eskilstuna with the city in their name have played in Allsvenskan, you cannot talk about GIF Sundsvall as Sundsvall or Kalmar FF as Kalmar without getting angry hate mail from IFK Sundsvall and Kalmar AIK supporters and then there is the confusing, frustrating mess that is Karlstad football and countless other examples.

You cannot choose who gets to be 'Malmö' in the article on Allsvenskan in 1959, who gets to be 'Skövde' in the article about Sargon Abraham or who gets to be 'Karlstad' in the article on 2024 Ettan without engaging in some form of personal bias.

Now, some Swedish football clubs do have truly unique short names, either because they come from a very small town like Mjällby AIF, are named after a neighbourhood like Örgryte IS, an object from mythology like IK Sleipner or a specific geographical feature like Utsiktens BK, but for the sake of consistency I argue that the long name should always be used. It is simply the solution that asks the least from both editors and readers.

I therefore propose that:

- Infoboxes, article headers and first mentions in article texts and similar always use the long club names for Swedish clubs, as has been the norm in articles about Swedish football

- Club articles be amended to make note that 'Malmö', 'Göteborg', 'Jönköping' etc. is informal and non-specific language

91.128.201.156 (talk) 22:33, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noted. Seasider53 (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed some of the links on the article you questioned, I can understand where you're coming from, because the one that bothers me is when people remove the AC from AC Milan in infoboxes or in the article. Do there forget there is Inter Milan also?? Govvy (talk) 10:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]