Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis

Template:5-set tennis

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Heavy discussion on Career Grand Slam tables that needs more eyes

We are having a dickens of a time trying to come together on a Career Grand Slam chart for List of Grand Slam and related tennis records. There only three of us but I admit that the other two have spent much more quality time on it than I have. I just have some big issues on sorting and using keys when it comes to our readers than my fellow editors do. Input here or there would be much appreciated. The whole topic is at Talk:List of Grand Slam_and related tennis records#Career Grand Slam table but a lot of the recent conversation is at Talk:List of Grand Slam_and related tennis records#Continued discussion 5. Thanks all. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

The discussion has reached a conclusion. The final version is now live. Qwerty284651 (talk) 10:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Example of one reason why Wikipedia increasingly loses respect

This project is the quintessential example of why Wikipedia is increasingly losing respect. It seems unless you are a member of this Tennis Project clique, your work on tennis pages will immediately be altered or removed. There are dozens, if not more, tennis articles about obscure players with few or no citations. There are many noteworthy BLP articles filled with unsourced content and over the top stats like "Joe Bloggs won his third match at this tournament in 10 appearances" or nonsense like "Joe Bloggs made his Major debut at this Major and won his first match at a Major"...well if it's his debut and he wins a match of course it's his first win. It doesn't need saying! There is one particular editor (Sashona) in your project who puts so much tiny stat related detail in and either doesn't cite it or uses random Twitter accounts to back it up. They, and a few others, act as if the tennis pages on here are their own personal property, pouncing on every edit made outside their clique and changing it no matter how well cited it may be. Wikipedia is supposed to be a free encyclopedia for the world, edited in good faith by anyone, with everything appropriately sourced. Unfortunately when it comes to tennis pages, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for the few, edited by a clique, packed full of unsourced trivia and clogged up by biographies of players who never made the top 300 or played a significant match in their entire careers. Oh, and one last thing, Wikipedia is a worldwide encyclopedia so insisting everything be written in a certain way because "that's what we say in the US" is ridiculous. Wimbledon, French Open, US Open and Australian Open are in fact Grand Slam tournaments no matter how often Americans call them Majors and titleist is at best nonsense and at worst not even a word! I could give more examples but none of you Tennis Project clique members give too hoots so I will stop there. I got this off my chest and if it gets deleted immediately I don't care. Also if you want to hurl abuse at me on my talk page or in reply to this then enjoy. Shrug02 (talk) 08:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to reverse the decision to blanket remove this from the talk page. While I agree some of what's written might fall into WP:CIVIL. In your edit summary Fyunck, you said on removal that "some of what was written is true." It might be worth elaborating on your thoughts rather than removal, if it leads to the health of the information on Wikipedia then it merits a discussion. YellowStahh (talk) 21:58, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

Some of this is true, but most is total baloney by an editor guilty of the same things he is ranting against and perhaps some ignorance in the world of tennis. Looking at them, many of his edits are just fine. Some have been unsourced pov or against Wikipedia standards. But he got it off his chest so that's a good thing. I looked at the post as grandstanding without an actual question, and I removed it, but another editor brought it back for comment.

• "This project is the quintessential example of why Wikipedia is increasingly losing respect." - A load of crap with this. All you need to do is look at any political article and see where the respect is draining away.

• "It seems unless you are a member of this Tennis Project clique, your work on tennis pages will immediately be altered or removed." - More baloney. Some editors do that to be sure but not most, and not some clique.

• "There are dozens, if not more, tennis articles about obscure players with few or no citations. There are many noteworthy BLP articles filled with unsourced content and over the top stats." - No question this is true. I think we already knew this but many of our articles could be trimmed by 50%-75%.

• "There is one particular editor (Sashona) in your project who puts so much tiny stat related detail in and either doesn't cite it or uses random Twitter accounts to back it up." - Some things are true and hard to argue with. That editor is a problem for me too. If it's not over-detail it's too lengthy of section headers that hammer the tables of contents for browsers or his refusal to obey wikipedia rules on capitalization.

• "when it comes to tennis pages, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for the few, edited by a clique, packed full of unsourced trivia and clogged up by biographies of players who never made the top 300 or played a significant match in their entire careers." - Partial truth here. It is packed full of trivia, and I wish it were not. But it's not edited by a clique. There are actually not all that many tennis editors so it may appear so. But in those few editors they disagree among themselves all the time... there is no clique.

• The rest I'll attribute to ignorance of tennis.

So you got your response. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:19, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) Show me where I've used unsourced pov content? Shrug02 (talk) 22:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

As for not meeting Wikipedia standards. You told me in August not to use scoring in prose unless it's a record and I haven't done since. If welcome further examples so I can seek to improve. @Fyunck(click) Shrug02 (talk) 22:42, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

@Fyunck(click) As for "ignorance of tennis" you know nothing about me and just because you write about tennis on Wikipedia doesn't make you an expert. I'm an informed, long time tennis fan and former low level player. I do the best I can and I learn from constructive advice such as detailed above but I'm certainly not ignorant and I resent the remark and ask you to retract it. Shrug02 (talk) 22:46, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

You know something.... the pov edit was attributed to another editor. I was wrong on that. Sorry. I originally said "perhaps some ignorance." I had no idea your tennis background but the last part on tennis majors is simply wrong and I attribute ignorance (lack of knowledge on that matter.) There can be other reasons why you are wrong that I don't know about, but lack of knowledge on the terminology seemed to me the best reason at the time. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:25, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

And agreeing with @Shrug02:, editor Sashona continues to add long section headers that make table of contents too wide. Silly items like "top 60" to Renata Zarazúa or not adhering to the absolute biggest item of the period (like winning an event) and instead adding 3rd round or making their first appearance. This is an encyclopedia and them adding the trivia is a detraction. Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:46, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Unreferenced tennis competition articles

Hello WP Tennis! I am a volunteer with WikiProject Unreferenced articles; we are in the midst of our November 2024 backlog drive and a few editors recently went through and tagged few hundred articles are unreferenced. Most of these are part of the ATP Challenger Tour and I'm having some trouble finding citations for them. Would you have any suggestions for perennial sources? Sports is not my metier and I don't want to make a bunch of edits that are obviously detrimental to the project overall and frustrating to WP Tennis editors. Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Best, Kazamzam (talk) 19:41, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

All the ATP Challenger Tour events are listed at [1], basic information about the tournament, along with the draw and tournament results can be cited to the appropriate pages. More detailed information may be tougher to cite as challenger tournaments vary hugely in how much coverage they receive. Iffy★Chat -- 19:50, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

@Iffy - much obliged! And the ATP site is considered a reliable source by WP Tennis? Just making sure I'm not about to get reverted 10,000 times for my trouble. Thanks for the speedy response. Kazamzam (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the ATP is a generally reliable source for the existence of tournaments held on their tours and for the results of those tournaments; though as the ATP is also the organiser of those tournaments, their website would be considered a WP:PRIMARY source, so ideally other sources would also be included to flesh out the articles. Iffy★Chat -- 17:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Iffy - excellent, thank you for the help. Kazamzam (talk) 13:30, 21 November 2024 (UTC)

Flat (tennis)

Is this actually notable? If yes, the find and add reliable sources to show significant coverage. If not, then please send it to WP:AfD. Love. Bearian (talk) 15:18, 10 January 2025 (UTC)