Talk:Tropical Storm Alberto (2018)

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Tropical Storm Alberto (2018) has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Tropical Storm Alberto (2018) is part of the Off-season Atlantic hurricanes series, a good topic. This is identified as among the best series of articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do so.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
November 13, 2018	Good article nominee	Listed
January 7, 2019	Good topic candidate	Promoted

Current status: Good article

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Weather: Tropical / Atlantic / Non-tropical / 2018 FT TF Mid‑importance

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Requested move 27 May 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus but leaning towards opposing, leaving as is. MarioProtIV (^talk/_contribs) 02:40, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(non-admin closure)

Subtropical Storm Alberto → Subtropical Storm Alberto (2018) – Per WP:CONSISTENCY. There are similar article that followed the pattern that add the year for the subtropical storm, such as Nicole in 2004 and Andrea in 2007. B dash (talk) 16:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't think the move is relevant at all. Alberto will most likely become tropical, and thus the title would be moved to Tropical Storm Alberto. Since there's already other articles about it, there would be a year next to the title (Tropical Storm Alberto (2018)).INeedSupport (talk) 16:48, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to opposed: The storm is the only subtropical cyclone that has the name Alberto. If we decide to not put the year in it, we should do the same thing for Subtropical Storm Andrea (2007).— Preceding unsigned comment added by INeedSupport (talk • contribs) 01:29, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: As @INeedSupport said, it would probably be best to wait until the storm transitions into a tropical cyclone. In case the storm does not transition, however, I would suggest keeping it the way it is as this not only is the most significant SS Alberto out there, but the only one at the time. X2A3Q (talk) 17:12, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It's the only "Subtropical Storm Alberto" so no. Andrea 07 probably should be moved though. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 17:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose unless it becomes tropical If it becomes Tropical Storm Alberto, then add 2018 because there have been other TS Alberto cyclones in the past. Otherwise, keep the title as-is because there was no other "Subtropical Storm Alberto" and any user that types exactly that into the search bar is likely looking for this specific article. Either way, I would list this storm in the disambiguation page for "Tropical Storm Alberto" to help users find storms with the same name. If/when it does become tropical, feel free to consider this a support !vote, but only then. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 19:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Were any of the other storms named Alberto ever subtropical before becoming tropical? If so, then this should definitely be (2018). I'd argue it should be anyway due to the ambiguous nature of the names subtropical vs. tropical. That is why, with the exception of retired names, any storm Tropical Storm (whatever) that had all the storms with that name become hurricanes at peak intensity have the date identifier. CrazyC83 (talk) 00:26, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I went through the meteorological history of every "Alberto" in the disambiguation page searching for any mention of the letters "subt" and it seems that there was no other "Subtropical Storm Alberto" at any point. However, in 2006 it was mentioned in one sentence that it was remarked that 06's Alberto, according to one forecaster, "resembled a subtropical storm" but it was not declared one because it had already developed into a tropical storm. I maintain that we should only add a year to the title if 2018's Alberto becomes a tropical storm or hurricane. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 03:24, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose There was no Subtropical Storm of this name in the past. Felicia (talk) 01:16, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Undecided for now. I find myself agreeing with B dash's rationale in principle — if Nicole '04 and Andrea '07 have the year identifiers, then so should Alberto '18. A negating argument is the level of Alberto's notability, which certainly exceeds Nicole's and arguably has surpassed Andrea's as well. While the impacts as of yet do not meet WP:PRIMARYTOPIC across all incarnations of Alberto (the champion in that regard would have to be Alberto '94), Alberto's level of notability and media coverage as compared to Nicole and Andrea could beget an argument against adding a year identifier to this year's Alberto while leaving it intact for Nicole and Andrea. My final decision will hinge on the aftermath of Alberto — if Alberto manages to create a lasting memory for itself as "Subtropical Storm Alberto," then I think Alberto should remain without a year identifier; if Alberto fades from public conscience after the storm fades from Earth, then I think a year identifier should be added. --Dylan620 (talk) 21:35, 28 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Dylan620: I think that the opposing side is arguing that only one subtropical storm called Alberto, no need disambiguation, but not primary topic. --182.239.120.129 (talk) 03:54, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral, but "Subtropical Storm Alberto", "Subtropical Storm Alberto (2018)", "Tropical Storm Alberto (2018)" should all exist as redirects, and there should possibly be a hatnote linking to the Hurricane/TropStorm Alberto disambiguation page (with other storms of the name) like there is on other pages. Paintspot Infez (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- - The title is not ambiguous, so a hatnote isn't necessary. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 16:20, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- Oppose redirecting "Tropical Storm Alberto (2018)" to the article as it never becomes tropical. --B dash (talk) 14:35, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - I disagree, given that "subtropical" and "tropical" are confused enough terms where I think it's sensible in the case of a subtropical storm. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 16:20, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support I initially did not understand the distinction, and I suspect our readers won't either. The (2018) would aid in the SEO results and for people trying to find up to date encyclopedic information on this crucial topic. There have been no less than 6 other storms named Alberto, so the qualifier is needed. I also support it for WP:CONSISTENCY sake. No opposition for further page moves, but the (2018) qualifier is crucial. Tutelary (talk) 18:57, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- @Tutelary: In what way would it help? There is literally only one "Subtropical Storm Alberto", with emphasis on "Subtropical". The fact that there were tropical cyclones named Alberto in the past does not change that. Search engines are typically smart enough to make temporal distinctions like (2018) would do so your argument holds absolutely no water.--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose There is one and only one Subtropical Storm Alberto.--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:25, 29 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
~~Support~~ Storm names are reused every 6 years. NOAA states that "Tropical Cyclone Naming History and Retired Names". www.nhc.noaa.gov. NOAA. Retrieved 30 May 2018. For Atlantic hurricanes, there is a list of names for each of six years. QuickWittedHare (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- We removed years if the cyclone has been very significant or it's the only one of its kind. This Alberto is the only subtropical cyclone that has not transitioned into a tropical cyclone. INeedSupport (talk) 20:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  - Changed vote to Neutral because it can always be renamed later. QuickWittedHare (talk) 20:13, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong opposition: No other subtropical storm has been named Alberto, and it is already weakening and has a near 0% chance of strengthening into a tropical storm. Only suggest this when another note-worthy subtropical storm is named Alberto, which is highly unlikely. However, in the current situation, there is no need to rename it. BlindmanJr (talk) 23:36, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose – There is only one Subtropical Storm Alberto. Including the year adds nothing. Master of Time (talk) 04:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Although this Alberto isn't exactly the primary topic among the other Albertos, per WP:DISAMBIG#Usage guidelines, since this is the only subtropical storm Alberto that exists, there is no need for a year unless another subtropical storm Alberto forms in the future. Rye998 (talk) 10:09, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose This is the only Subtropical Storm Alberto, and it has done a few notable things during it's lifespan. Josiah W. 16:31, 31 May 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jw133102 (talk • contribs)
Strong Oppose This is the only Subtropical Storm to be named Alberto and has notible features such as being the second most southern-forming Atlantic subtropical storm and the third most-intense cyclone observed in the month of May. Davidbuddy9 Talk 21:39, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Article

In my opinion, there is not enough on this storm to be a complete article. It will, in the future, likely have enough but for now I don't think it is necessary to have a separate article for Alberto... its just not significant enough yet. INFOWeather1 (talk) 16:58, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would have waited a few more hours to pull the trigger but it's close enough IMO that it's not worth the hassle to merge it. This system will be onshore in 20-24 hours anyhow. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 17:41, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Yellow Evan; it was published slightly prematurely, but it's only a short matter of time until landfall and it's not beneficial to merge it back into the season article only to republish it a day later. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 19:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was already drafting this...

Did nobody notice the draft I was creating in my sandbox? I didn't even know this was created, and I was already progressing on it before this was even made. I also noticed that much of this was copy-pasted from the draft I had in my sandbox. Cooper 18:18, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the text of the season talk page, I think it was actually you announcing your draft that prompted this, and for that I thank you. Using draft space Draft:Subtropical Storm Alberto is preferable because it allows us to move it directly into main space. Brendon the Wizard ✉️ ✨ 18:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. Perhaps I misunderstood and just didn't notice. Sorry for any misunderstandings. Should I merge the contents of the draft as I complete it? Cooper 19:16, 27 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What are we supposed to call it now?

Alberto has undergone tropical transition much later than was expected. Even though it has acquired tropical characteristics, it did not peak as a tropical cyclone. What are we going to call it now? Cooper 02:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer keeping the subtropical designation as it never was a tropical storm in the first place. Cooper 02:59, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep it as is. Peak was as a subtropical storm and that would also fall in line with WP:COMMONNAME. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 03:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, leave it alone (with or without (2018)) pending post-analysis. If they find it was tropical while at least 40 mph, then it should take the TS article. CrazyC83 (talk) 03:55, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia generally names tropical systems by their peak intensity, and Alberto's peak was during its Subtropical Storm period, even though it became a tropical depression. BlindmanJr (BlindmanJr) 23:41 30 May 2018 —Preceding undated comment added 22:42, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TCR confirms it was a tropical, not subtropical, storm at peak (and that takes precedence). However, a future "Subtropical Storm Alberto" WILL require the year, since 2018 was subtropical for the first part of its life. CrazyC83 (talk) 01:22, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Unusual storm

I just removed a ton of trivial mentions of other storms in the lead section which is meant to summarize the article as a whole. I understand that this was a strange storm as it strengthened over land, but this should be included in its own section on the article. Another option is to go with a mention under the "Meteorological history" section. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:38, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Records such as the trivial mention" you removed are usually exempt from tropical cyclone articles. They are fine to keep. Cooper 15:29, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you'd like we could possibly remove mentions of other storms, although I don't know how that would flow within the paragraph. Cooper 15:34, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the "Record" paragraph should be removed, and integrated into the meteorological history. To point it out in its own paragraph in the lead seems to go against WP:SUMMARY, but the information is worth keeping. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 00:56, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is crazy, are we going to have something like "x storm was the only the ninth storm to do y". Or something like "a was the 6th storm in June to do b"? There is a reason why we have a tag that says: "This article may contain indiscriminate, excessive, or irrelevant examples". - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:34, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If we have a source, maybe but in general, this likely should be considered on a case by case basis for the time being. I'll admit this is sort of a new problem to deal with since until recently we never had sources for records like these. But regardless this stuff should be incorporated in the MH for flow reasons rather than given its own paragraph. Y E ^Pacific ^Hurricane 17:45, 18 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My concern remains though, I feel these would fall under WP:NOTSTATSBOOK as they don't really enhance readability, but pop up at random times or in clumps. If the storm was the first of its kind or if these records were comprised of a "Top 10 list" (verified through GWR, NOAA, or a major government agency) then yeah I could see them being included. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:23, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Edit - I just want to point out that this revision regarding these "records" has sourcing through twitter. [1] While twitter can be used regarding professionals, they are considered self published sources. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 13:25, 19 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alerto was not a tropical storm

Contrary to what is in the text, Alberto was a subtropical storm at peak intensity and it is only once inland that it becasuse a tropical depression (see the sequence of messages by the NHC at https://www.nhc.noaa.gov/archive/2018/ALBERTO.shtml). The name should be reverted to Subtropical storm Alberto.

Pierre cb (talk) 15:12, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Pierre cb: it was revised to a tropical storm in post-storm assessment by the NHC. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 16:06, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK. Pierre cb (talk) 16:16, 23 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cuba sources

No disaster page for the event, collected a few useful links to be used ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 19:56, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]