Talk:Paul Denyer

Request to wear cosmetics in prison

Anyone know why he was denied to wear makeup? Also, who wrote this article? I looked for information on him no less than 4 weeks ago and there was no wikipedia article on him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.7.176.134 (talk • contribs)

I provided what's currently there, though the article is far from finished. The references section may give more information on the denial of his request for cosmetics in prison. I think I can work out why though. Killing three young women, then asking to become one (he also requested information on sex reassignment surgery), albeit whilst imprisoned in a maximum security prison, would pose some serious security risks I'd imagine. -- Longhair 15:45, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

The guy says he kills women because he hates them and THEN wants to become one? If I were a judge, I would deny him the "privilege" of wearing cosmetics too. Come on... ANY decent judge would deny him to wear cosmetics after what he stated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.8.60.53 (talk) 05:19, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Above post raises a great question... Anyway, this article is fairly light-weight for a serial killer thats well known in Melbourne, if not Australia. Beef it up, someone! (I cant) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.219.255.133 (talk) 06:47, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Additional information needed?

As mentioned above, this page seems rather short on some critical information. When was he arrested? When/where was the trial? The timeline information that is provided seems confusing without this information.G.turner (talk) 00:48, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi Mr.Turner.... having been incarcerated with this animal at Port Phillip Prison, I looked on her at his fullish story. I did a bit of research. I don't know how to put the info you wanted to know in but here are a few things I found out. 1st Murder was 11 June 1993. Not sure on date of 2nd murder.

Denyer was arrested on the 31 of July 1993. During his last murder, as he was slicing the woman open, he accidentally cut some skin from his finger which police took and got DNA from. After his arrest, police requested a DNA sample from him and it was a match to the skin from the crime scene. On 15th of December 1993, Paul Denyer pleaded guilty to ALL charges at the Supreme Court of Victoria (In Melbourne CBD, Australia)

On 14th of April 2012, Paul Denyer was questioned over an alleged rape of another male inmate. I have been incarcerated at Port Phillip in the same unit and I do know for a 100% fact that he smashed a guys head against his cell wall and raped him anally. The unit we were in was called Alexandra North at Port Phillip Prison and that was in 2004. This Denyer demanded that even other crims call him Paula. We used to have pool competitions in the unit and on the form it had it's name as Paula Denyer. If anyone (that knows how to add this) would like to add, you can because I don't have a clue on how to do it. 3rd Murder was 30th of July 1993. Thank You. Barrakuta (talk) 10:16, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

A lot of these basic details have now been sourced and added to the article. JabberJaw (talk) 05:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

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Deleted online letter auction section

I deleted the "Online letter auction" section because it was not encyclopedic. Serial killer merchandise is sold all the time. That doesn't make it appropriate for a Wiki article. See Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. --*momoricks* (talk) 12:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

What does this mean?

"Denyer is a member of the first Australian-generation." He's a first generation Australian? So what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.218.35.144 (talk) 10:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It's offensive to have him called "she" and Paula in this article

Paul Denyer hated women, he brutally murdered women and I object strongly to the use of female gender for him here, when prison officials have denied him gender reassignment and such. It's just a slap in the face to all the women he killed, and those he terrorized as well.

This is nothing to do with being politically correct, or gender issues in general. It's about not giving this murdering freak what he wants, and so I would like to see the gender stuff reverted to male. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ausgirl123 (talk • contribs) 03:19, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The relevant Wikipedia Manual of Style guideline is MOS:GENDERID; it says "Give precedence to self-designation" - ie female in this case. The MOS guideline should take precedence over individual editors' personal opinions on the matter. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:43, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I think this is a special case and we should be guided by the sources. The sources referring to Denyer as "Paula Denyer" are a bunch of right-wing blogs and Wikipedia - the sources referring to Denyer as "Paul Denyer" is literally everything else about the person. The Drover's Wife (talk) 03:45, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID - with my emphasis here - says "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." The Herald Sun in April 2013 published the letters in which Denyer self-identifies as Paula. Is there a more recent reliable source in which Denyer self-identifies as male? Mitch Ames (talk) 04:18, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Conversely, see Wikipedia:Original research. It isn't a matter of "most common in reliable sources": I literally cannot find one single reliable source anywhere (and there are a lot on Denyer) that primarily refers to them as "Paula Denyer". The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:23, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Is there some doubt about the authenticity of the letters published by the Herald Sun in which Denyer self-identifies as female? Do we not consider the Herald Sun's statement that "Denyer ... demands that he be called Paula" a reliable source that Denyer self-identifies as female? What about News Limited's statement that "Denyer ... calls himself Paula and has adopted a female persona"? Bear in mind that MOS doesn't say "give precedence to how the reliable sources refer to a person", it says "give precedence to self-designation as reported ...". I've just given you two sources that explicitly say that Denyer self-designates as female. Here's a couple more:

"... he had felt like a female from birth... underwent a medial assessment ... after apply for a sex change"

"Denyer signed the letter as Paula, the name he has used since he began his bid for a sex change"

Mitch Ames (talk) 05:51, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I agree with User:Mitch Ames here. Denyer is a piece of shit, but the MOS is pretty clear on this. Start making exceptions for cases like this and you open the door for exceptions on others as well. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 06:02, 12 November 2017 (UTC).

As a side note, in Victoria you haven't been able to change your name by deed poll since 1986. (See Births, Deaths and Marriages Victoria.) The reference to the refusal to let Denyer "formally alter her name by deed poll" is incorrect. Kb.au (talk) 07:33, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

The reference says "In recent years, Denyer - previously incarcerated at Barwon Prison - has been unsuccessful in bids to wear make-up in jail, have a taxpayer-funded sex change and formally alter his name by deed poll to Paula." so "deed poll" should remain in the article unless an alternative source is found. The reference does not say why he was unsuccessful - perhaps it was because that has not been the process since 1986. --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:22, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Or more likely the reporter just used the phrase deed poll when they really meant "formally alter her legal name".Kb.au (talk) 13:56, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

The MoS is broken on this issue. It should really be the same as WP:NAMECHANGES. Jenks24 (talk) 09:35, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I disagree (MOS:GENDERID is about reference to the person, whereas WP:NAMECHANGES is more about the article title), but feel free to propose a change to MOS:GENDERID at WT:MOS. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

I understand the distinction. I'm saying that GENDERID should be the same as NAMECHANGES – ie, use the most common name/gender/etc in reliable sources since the 'change' – rather than the current stance of use whatever the subject chooses, which is contrary to every other policy or guideline we have. Jenks24 (talk) 12:39, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On the broader issue of gendered nouns and pronouns in this article, what is wrong with describing the crimes and court proceedings using masculine nouns and pronouns, as that was the appropriate gender identity at the time, then describing the gender identity change in prison? The last sentence in the victims section This made Denyer angry, and she slashed at her head and neck. is hard to read. The assailant was a male and identified as such. Calling the attacker "she" in Wikipedia is inconsistent with the sources at the time. She was arrested and tried as a male, and some time later has attempted to change identity. This person would not be notable if they had not committed those crimes, and quietly went about their life in the community, with either gender. Does Port Phillip Prison accommodate female prisoners, or only males? Is Denyer in a female or male section? This could need explanation if the prison article answered that question as male-only. --Scott Davis ^Talk 10:22, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Denyer, as recent as 2012, was housed within Port Phillip Prison [1] inside a protection unit. Port Phillip Prison is a male only prison environment. Female prisoners are housed just down the road at Dame Phyllis Frost Centre which is another separate facility entirely and in no way forms part of the Port Phillip Prison complex. The request for gender reassignment was refused by a court based on meetings with Human Services who found that the prisoner had not spent sufficient time in the community living as his preferred gender... I'll try source a reference for that, but that's what I recall off the top of my head until I get my hands on something more reliable than my own memory. -- Longhair\^talk 11:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

This reference appears to be no longer available online. but it's the best I can source for now...

Serial murderer's sex change rejected

By Geoff Wilkinson and AAP

June 28, 2004

TRIPLE murderer Paul Denyer's bid to become a woman has been rejected with a medical assessment finding him unsuitable for a sex change.

Denyer, 31, was branded one of Victoria's most dangerous criminals after stabbing and strangling Elizabeth Stevens, 18, Debbie Fream, 22, and Natalie Russell, 17 in bayside Frankston over a seven-week period in 1993.

He pleaded guilty to the murders and was sentenced to life in jail with no parole, adjusted to a non-parole period of 30 years following an appeal.

Denyer, an inmate of Barwon Prison, made headlines again earlier this year when he sought detailed information via Freedom of Information about government policy regarding sex swaps for prisoners and the steps required to undertake the process.

Corrections Victoria Commissioner Kelvin Anderson today confirmed the 120kg inmate had undergone a medical assessment by the Department of Human Services director of mental health Dr Ruth Vine after applying for a sex change.

"The answer's no," he said.

"It simply is that he is not a suitable person for such an operation and it will not proceed."

Mr Anderson said he was not privy to the "medical reasons" for Denyer's unsuitability.

"But clearly one of the difficulties that an applicant would have is, I believe, that they have to display a period of time of having lived in the community in this sort of situation," he said.

"Clearly someone in jail would have difficulty showing that."

He said he was unaware of any avenues of appeal available for Denyer to overturn the decision.

Denyer's case to wear make-up in jail will again be heard by the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal (VCAT) next month.

Denyer and the State of Victoria have been involved in mediation since January, after the inmate attempted to use anti-discrimination laws to appeal against prison authorities' refusal to let him buy and wear make-up.

Prison photographs and letters obtained by the Herald Sun provide chilling evidence of Denyer's continuing bid to be treated as a woman.

He has received official assistance - despite a Victorian State Government vow to stop him.

Denyer, who stabbed and strangled three young women, now calls himself Paula and has begun moves to change his name by deed poll.

The triple murderer describes himself on the back of one prison photograph as "Miss Tickle Morticia".

A transsexual prisoner just released from the maximum security Barwon jail for men said yesterday Denyer had used prison sewing machines to alter some of his clothing in an attempt to look more feminine.

She said Denyer had continued his sex swap campaign despite State Government assurances last year that his legal action to win the right to wear make-up in jail would fail.

The Human Services Department's director of mental health, Dr Ruth Vine, visited Denyer at Barwon last month in her capacity as principal medical officer for prisons.

Denyer later wrote on May 19 that Dr Vine's report on him suggested a referral to the Monash Medical Centre's gender dysphoria unit "should be held back pending further psychological attention".

Prison sources said yesterday Denyer was receiving counselling on gender identity issues from prison psychologists.

Jayne, a transsexual prisoner released from Barwon a week ago, said Denyer had "changed his appearance, but can't change the evil in his eyes".

She dismissed Denyer's behaviour as "sick, twisted attention-seeking".

Jayne said other prisoners and prison staff regarded Denyer's claims to be a woman after killing three women as a macabre joke.

"First, he was into bodybuilding, then he decided he wanted to be a devout Christian, then he decided he was a Muslim and now - in his 30s - he says he wants to be a woman," Jayne said.

"The way he's carrying on is an insult to all women and transsexuals and the families of his victims."

Jayne received 17 letters from Denyer while they were in different units at Barwon over the past year.

For two months they were housed in Hoya, a protection unit holding about 50 prisoners, including notorious killers Raymond Edmunds and Lindsay Beckett.

Jayne said the photographs of Denyer were taken by a prison recreation officer.

Denyer poses in one, hand outstretched, and wrote on the back: "All this can be yours if the price is right. A bit more practice and I should have a career in it."

Denyer, 32, stabbed and strangled three young women during a seven-week killing frenzy in bayside suburbs in 1993.

His victims were Elizabeth Stevens, 18, Debbie Fream, who was 22 and the mother of a 12-day-old baby, and Natalie Russell, 17.

Denyer told homicide squad detectives, who interviewed him after his arrest,that since he was 14 he had "always wanted to kill".

When asked why his victims were women, he said: "Just hate 'em".

Denyer was described in court as a narcissistic sadist who was a danger to all women.

He was sentenced to life in jail without parole, but appealed successfully to the Full Court, which set a non-parole period of 30 years.

Denyer has served 11 years and will be eligible for parole in 2023 when he will be 51.

Natalie Russell's parents were "absolutely shocked" when told by the Herald Sun yesterday of his latest stunt.

Carmel Russell said she and her husband Brian wondered whether Denyer's antics would ever end, but thought it important the public was reminded of what he'd done and his subsequent behaviour.

Herald Sun -- Longhair\^talk 12:12, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

And this is exactly why I said it's an exceptional case. There is a reason all reliable sources addressed this issue in the way they did, and it's not hard from the above to see why. The Drover's Wife (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

@The Drover's Wife: @Lankiveil: Natalie Russell's family certainly thinks the "Miss Gender Identity Disorder" is just a sick stunt being pulled by Denyer to cause more pain to them. Paul Benjamin Austin (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

I am disgusted and offended to see the identity in this article and it MUST be changed. He IS man. He is no more a woman than i am a box. Usual politically correct GARBAGE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.168.134.23 (talk) 07:23, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

@Mitch Ames: Denyer is notable for crimes committed as "the Frankston Serial Killer". His personal life beyond those crimes is not notable and should not be reported on Wikipedia. Gender ID guidelines do not apply in this case because there is no ongoing notability. Jj flash (talk) 23:32, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Even if you were to remove Denyer's "personal life", in particular, the "Gender identity" section, it would be awkward to write the article without using any pronouns to refer to Denyer. If the article uses pronouns to refer to Denyer, then MOS:GENDERID would still apply:

Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, ... that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, ...

Mitch Ames (talk) 09:57, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Just read the Paul Denyer article - have to say it’s extremely confusing, he was a man when he committed offences. I understand and largely agree with the gendered pronoun guidelines but this article reads terribly because of it. AlbyMangels100 (talk) 10:12, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

Feel free to make improvements that are consistent with the guidelines. Given the previous disagreements about the article, it might be prudent to propose specific changes on the talk page first. I'd suggest a new talk page section for proposed changes, rather than continuing this one. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:13, 4 January 2019 (UTC)

The argument above that the sources for the name change are low quality (which is the only argument against using Paula which comes close to being policy/guideline-compliant/relevant) intrigued me, so I looked into it (cursorily), and did find some books explicitly saying the person is trans and identifies with this name, and an editor cited a letter from the person above. Unless there are sources saying those sources are mistaken / saying that the person does not in fact identify as trans, the guidelines are clear, as Mitch Ames says. -sche (talk) 23:03, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Either way, the name Paula should still be changed back to Paul. Since the MOS:GENDERID doesn’t include calling a person different name because they identify with that name now. Paul is a proper noun, not a grammatically gendered noun. Notyourcupotea (talk) 22:49, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Paul is a common masculine given name, and Paula is a common female given name, so I think we could reasonably says that the name is part of Denyer's self-designation, which MOS:GENDERID says to give precedence to. Mitch Ames (talk) 23:50, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID says the pre-transition name should be used if the subject was notable under that name, which he certainly was. There is no good solution to this problem because the absurdity of anachronistic gendering is current Wikipedia policy. But at least it should be consistent throughout the article, not a random mix of Paul/Paula and he/she as it is. Also consider that he seems to have detransitioned.--2.204.227.229 (talk) 07:35, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

Category "Female Serial Killers"

Since she was male at the time of committing the killings, conviction, sentencing and imprisonment, She shouldn't fall under the category of Female Serial Killers. An egg hatches into a chicken, but you wouldn't file an egg under the category of "Chicken Wings" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.185.115.98 (talk) 22:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

That's not what Wikipedia's policies say, nor is it how other cases were handled (e.g. Chelsea Manning). 50.235.24.34 (talk) 15:19, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

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Paul not Paula.

He has not legally changed his name. He has not transitioned. He is Paul. Period. Rippingbracelet (talk) 16:55, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

MOS:GENDERID has no such requirements on how we handle her name. —C.Fred (talk) 18:03, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

But WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:COMMONNAME, and other policies tell us to follow the sources. Virtually all reliable sources refer to this subject as Paul, not Paula. GENDERID is being misunderstood and misapplied here. Guidelines operate within, not against, policies. Trying to use personal interpretations of a guideline to subvert the clear meaning of multiple policies is WP:GAMING.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:19, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

I completely agreed. It’s Paul, this article is far too left without grounds to actual facts. His name is Paul. You can’t start changing names of criminals just because they identify with a different name. Notyourcupotea (talk) 22:35, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

'far too left' - I think that your perception could possibly be the actual intention for this... from what I gathered from reading past discussions, the only sources other than Wikipedia that refer to this person in this manner that Wikipedia does are extreme RIGHT-wing publications. For what agenda I cannot speculate. But this article seems to be a ground zero for subversive WP:GAMIMG activity. =\ Firejuggler86 (talk) 00:14, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

Request to remove : "Despite media speculation, heightened public fear, and warnings from her school" in description of Natalie Russell's murder

Reason for request is that this is a form of a victim blaming. This path is a normal path used by students who attend JPC and locals walking around their area, at least it was in the 90's. It was used by the school for students to walk to the school swin carnival. It is not an out of the way track in bushland. The golf course sits in the middle of a suburb. There were no instructions to change your walking route home at the time. So I don't see information this as relevant to how she died and implies that her actions contributed to her own murder which they did not. Please update this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BAC Plumridge (talk • contribs) 02:29, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The cited source is a podcast, and it's not practical for me to go through the entire programme to see if the source says that specifically. If they do, however, then it's reasonable and appropriate to leave it in. Also, what source says there weren't instructions to change walking routes? —C.Fred (talk) 02:34, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The detail is quite clear from this other source as well (timeframe c. 11:40-).Australian True Crime Podcast #58 JabberJaw (talk) 07:56, 15 October 2020 (UTC)

LOOOOOLLL. "It is unparticle for Wikipedia to verify a source".

What's the point of including them? Qarnos (talk) 10:28, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Can this please be revised as it is victim blaming. It implies that she increased her chances of being attacked by choosing her normal route home. Can the word 'despite' please be removed and changed to "At the time there was media speculation, heightened public fear, and warnings from her school." Then commence the rest of the sentence as a new sentence. There was not an alternative route for her to walk that any student would have used. The alternate routes in that area would have meant walking a significant amount of extra time and would not necessarily have been deemed safer. The other victims were taken from far more public and accessible places. I do not believe a podcast is sufficient evidence of this increasing her chances of being attacked which is implied by that sentence. BAC Plumridge (talk) 06:37, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

Updated language to remove implication of victim blaming while primary source is checked.Very neant (talk) 11:45, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Victorian Parliament

Denyer's potential availability for parole in 2023 was discussed in the Vic parliament recently. The MP asking the question of the govt (David Limbrick) referred to him as Paul Denyer. In her response, the Victorian Attorney General referred to "Mr Denyer." Facebook video of parliamentary proceedings here: https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=876315283247607&extid=NS-UNK-UNK-UNK-IOS_GK0T-GK1C&ref=sharing Anyone pushing some WP bureaucratic nonsense that Denyer should be referred to as female is putting ideology ahead of what is (a) factually correct, and (b) morally correct. 124.170.120.47 (talk) 17:14, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Further to this, Denyer no longer identifies as female. The author of this nine part podcast is a thoroughly fact-checked author Vikki Petraitis who has confirmed this with many sources in the prison Denyer is incarcerated within.

Source: https://open.spotify.com/episode/6mgbcI4eYXRI4O5ANkJuoY?go=1&sp_cid=9f28158da841ec904bcff4ce46ceb181&t=1&utm_source=embed_player_p&utm_medium=desktop&nd=1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Such-change47 (talk • contribs) 21:59, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@Such-change47: Please provide specific time-stamps in the podcast where the statement is made that Denyer identifies as male in 2021. We need to make sure they aren't using male pronouns to discuss circumstances at a point in the past. —C.Fred (talk) 03:24, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

• Because gender identity is a hot-button issue, I have escalated this matter to WP:BLPN. —C.Fred (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

• I've reverted again. I think the podcast is likely insufficient to make this claim and for such a contentious claim, the information should stay out unless there is consensus the source is reliable. While dealing with gender identity issues can be tricky, the earlier information is sufficiently sourced so IMO we do far less harm by keeping it at that even if it may not be their current gender identity. We can never guarantee our articles are 100% up to date. Anyway back to the source, perhaps we can make an exception if it's an interview and in any case please provide a timestamp so we can better evaluate this source. Nil Einne (talk) 05:12, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

User:C.Fred and Nil Einne, the podcast Timestamp is 1:40. It is one of the first things mentioned in a nine part series. I do not use random podcasts as sources. The author of this Spotify exclusive commissioned series is Vikki Petraitis, who has written 15 books, including editions on the life and crimes of Paul Denyer. The entire podcast is 40,000 words long, and includes interviews with the parents of Sarah Macdiarmid, transcripts of a Coronial Inquest, and documents such as police statements and police files obtained by Petraitis. You will not see me randomly changing the pronouns of Caitlyn Jenner just because I heard a whisper somewhere that she is no longer identifying as a woman. This is a serial killer who at one stage wished to be addressed as Paula. This person is behind bars serving an indefinite sentence without access to the internet. Vikki has confirmed by speaking to multiple people who served time with Paul about his identity. This constant editing of my contributions when I am a lawyer and criminologist who has spent dozens of hours researching for research papers on Denyer and his crimes seems rather bizarre. You are doing an incredible disservice to trans people who's legitimate identities are devalued by the use of female pronouns on a male who does not identify as a woman. You will actually find no evidence from Paul Denyer himself that he ever identified as female, only speculation in the media. At no time was Denyers name changed on government documents and he is serving time in Port Phillip Prison, maximum security male prison. Much of this article does not read properly due to the use of different pronouns, is factually incorrect, and confusing to readers. With all of the transphobic vandalism that occurs here, I find it extremely odd that experienced users seem insistent on devoting resources to debate whether or not someone who cut the throat of three women should be referred to as female. Not only does Denyer not identify as a woman, making the use of these pronouns factually incorrect, I think its pretty demeaning to the trans cause to say it causes their community 'harm'. I doubt anyone cares. Such-change47 (talk) 06:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Such-change47 please take a read of MOS:GENDERID and WP:BLP.

In short, we don't care whether governments fail to recognise someone's gender identity. Many governments do not for a variety of reasons. The thing which matters to us is whether the subject has clearly expressed a gender identity. In some circumstances if sufficient sources have disputed the sincerity of someone expressed gender identity, it's possible we may mention this but even if we do, we still write the article according to the latest expressed gender identity. And even for people who aren't in prison, this generally comes from what reliable secondary sources have reported the person has said. If a reliable secondary source has reported what someone has said about their gender identity, this isn't "speculation". We generally prefer what reliable secondary sources have said about what someone has said rather than relying on what the person said directly per WP:ABOUTSELF etc.

Nothing you've said seems to dispute that the podcast is a self published source and therefore cannot be used for claims about other living persons. (Note that this would likely include Sarah Macdiarmid, and of her family and friends who are still alive, anyone involved in the investigation etc who is still alive, and any identifiable people accused of possible involvement in her diappearance who are either still alive or may be still alive.) The fact that the subject of this article may be a horrible person does not affect our policy. While there would be a lot we can say about them which will be very negative and will be included in the article, we cannot include information (positive, negative or neutral) if there isn't sufficient sourcing. This includes about their gender identity.

And I never said anything about causing any community harm. I only referred to causing the subject harm. BLP first and foremost is about avoiding harm to all living persons by what we say about them, ensuring it's properly sourced and should be covered. As already mention, this does include serial killers and other not nice people. If you aren't willing to accept that, please refrain from editing any content which concerns living persons. While I find it very wrong that the subject has claimed their gender dysphobia lead to their crimes, when it comes to writing articles I accept I cannot exclude information just because I find it distasteful. What matters is the level of coverage in reliable secondary sources and other issues from our policies and guidelines which dictate what we should cover.

Nil Einne (talk) 07:11, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

The quote from the podcast at 1:40 is "Paul Denya spent a number of years identifying as a woman, during which he was known as Paula. Several sources have since advised that he no longer identifies as a woman, and uses the name Paul again." Given the questionable reliability of the source, the fact that it's the only source making this claim, and the dearth of actual information given by the source, the best call here is to stick with the most recent reliably sourced gender preference. Firefangledfeathers 14:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - a single source, referring only to unnamed other sources, doesn't meet the burden of proof to make such a significant change. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 18:22, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Nil Einne and Firefangledfeathers I have spent some time reading up on policies today before coming back to this. I do understand now why it would have been better to discuss substantial changes here first rather than just revert the changes. After absorbing the policies about biographies of living persons, and reliability of sources, I would like to know why this source is not worthy of a change, considering that the source listed stating Denyer committed his first murder is the same podcast producer that I cited? Casefile Presents is the source used to cite claims of Denyer committing murder, yet this is considered insufficient to cite something else? Denyer was never convicted of a crime relating to the slaughter of cats in the Claude street residence. The same podcast series which discusses crimes of which the subject was never convicted is cited and this was never removed. Is it the case that if the comments about Denyer reverting to male pronouns occurred in a print newspaper, things would be different? Such-change47 (talk) 07:48, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@Firefangledfeathers: Such-change47 (talk) 04:04, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I would be inclined to remove or attribute other claims made by Casefile, unless uncontentious or corroborated by other sources. I looked around a decent amount for some other source discussing Denyers no longer identifying as female, and found none. The murder of Elizabeth Stevens is plentifully sourced elsewhere.

Part of the issue of relying on a true-crime podcast to source so much of this article is that it's written in too much podcast-y detail. I'm mainly here in response to the BLPN notice, and not looking to be too involved in a major cleanup/rewrite. Firefangledfeathers 04:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2022

In 2012, Denyer was questioned over four rapes of vulnerable prisoners in Denyer's prison cell. Denyer was accused of offering them a massage before raping them. As they were vulnerable and had special needs it was difficult to get their statements.

Denyer gave evidence about these rapes via video link and refused to look at the camera.1

Evidence at court by a psychiatrist and psychologist stated that Denyer had a

'Sadistic Personality Disorder' and

'The applicant obtained much satisfaction from the mutilation, humiliation, and killing of others.'

Sources: 1 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-08/serial-killer-questioned-over-alleged-prison-rape/3998134

2 The Frankston Serial Killer By Vikki Petraitis Chapter 37 125.168.228.22 (talk) 21:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. PianoDan (talk) 22:07, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2022

For the media section, you can add the documentary "Forensic Investigators Episode 1 Series 1 2004". Paul Denyer https://g.co/kgs/9B31FN Ajthunter (talk) 16:09, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Ajthunter Ajthunter (talk) 16:10, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Where and why would it be added? SK2242 (talk) 02:10, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:44, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2022

Use correct male pronouns for Paul Denyer 2A01:4B00:A80E:5100:F4D1:953C:6C39:6189 (talk) 05:55, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: see MOS:GENDERID Cannolis (talk) 06:23, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Continual switching of pronouns

Denyer is variously referred to as both a male and a female throughout this article. Sometimes the same sentence or consecutive sentences will switch Denver's pronouns. This is confusing for readers.

I understand Denyer's current gender identity is subject to some degree of uncertainty. I do not know what Wikipedia's policy is on post-transition identification. However, there should surely be consistency in the use of Denyer's pronouns. Certainly, when Denyer committed his or her crimes, Denyer identified as a male. 49.179.91.87 (talk) 07:54, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 July 2022

Change "date apprehended" to 31 July 1993. Paul Denyer was apprehended on 31 July 1993 not 31 March 1994. The date listed at the top of this article is incorrect but is correct in the section titled "Investigation". Source: The Frankston Murders: 25 years on by Vicki Petraitis. Pkcw197 (talk) 23:52, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done Aaron Liu (talk) 02:57, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

Pronouns

Since the new Stan doco says he's reverted to male, I've gone through and changed all his pronouns to masculine Balaga Xx (talk) 02:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

lol, what a silly game. 124.170.110.40 (talk) 10:35, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, it's pretty messed up to rewrite an article to change the gendered pronouns, under dubious circumstances, to avoid potentially disrespecting a convicted serial killer regardless of how doing so may disrespect his victims; especially as:

a) The serial killer is using the supposed "gender dysphoria" as an excuse for killing his victims; and

b) The serial killer changes his mind on his "gender dysphoria" once it no longer serves his purpose of securing early release.

It is frankly disgusting that a supposed "encyclopedia" is willing to grovel to social trends such as this.

There should be a rule on articles such as this, where the subject of the article is a criminal famous only for their crimes, that the pronouns should be the ones they used when committing those crimes.

Wikipedia has become a joke. Qarnos (talk) 10:14, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Also, is an unsourced "Stan doco" a reliable source? Maybe we need to revert these changes and go back to calling him a woman? Qarnos (talk) 10:26, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2023

The first known incident attributed to Denyer occurred in February 1993, when Donna Vanes' Claude Street unit in Seaford was broken into.[10] After an anonymous threatening call, Vanes was fearful of being alone.[9] Vanes asked her boyfriend to take her and their newborn --Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)baby out while he delivered pizzas--Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC).[9]

After being out for approximately an hour, Vanes--Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC) returned to the unit with her boyfriend. After seeing blood on the floor and that one of the cats was dead, the police were called. A police officer arrived and discovered the cat had been slaughtered with its intestines strewn across the floor and its eyes removed (source?)--Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC) A pornographic image had been placed on its body.[9] Written in the cats blood above a stove were the words "Donna you're dead"[10][11] In the bathroom, police found Vanes'--Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC) two kittens also slaughtered with their throats cut floating in the bath. Shaving cream had been sprayed over a mirror in the bedroom and more pornographic images had been posted over a wardrobe. These images had been slashed, as had other furniture. The intruder had also placed a pornographic image inside the crib of Vanes' --Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)baby which had also been slashed.[9]

Unwilling to stay at the unit, she moved in with her sister, who was living in the unit next to Denyer, and whose neighbour had also recently been the victim of a break-in slasher.[9] After Denyer's subsequent arrest, he admitted to police he was responsible for the break-in, vandalism, and murdering Vanes'--Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC) cats. Denyer also stated to police that had Vanes been home, he'd have--Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC) murdered her also.[11] Lavachik (talk) 04:33, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lightoil (talk) 05:42, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

There is a stray apostrophe in the name Vanes in "After being out for approximately an hour, Vanes returned to the unit..." 220.240.147.159 (talk) 23:41, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2023

In the section ‘Break-in and killing of animals’ the last line reads ‘…he’d of murdered her also.’ That should read ‘he’d have murdered her also.’

Grammatically, ‘he’d of’ makes no sense and is well below acceptable standard. 106.71.63.3 (talk) 07:06, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done http://en.wiki.x.io/w/index.php?title=Paul_Denyer&diff=prev&oldid=1154103606 Cannolis (talk) 13:36, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

New legislation

Paul Denyer is named in new Victorian legislation... https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-31/frankston-serial-killer-paul-denyer-law-prison-parole/103043948 220.240.147.159 (talk) 23:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Could we please change the picture on this article?

Several years ago I objected to the female pronouns for this serial killer and reverted the article to male pronouns. My reasons for doing this were several:

1. the transition from male to female was not supported by the mental health professional assigned to assess the purported gender dysphoria

2. the state government of Victoria did not recognise or accept his transition to female

3. the gender dysphoria Denyer reported carried a very high risk that it was vexatious in order to escape the male prison system

4. the potential danger of putting a serial killer of women in amongst other women in a women's prison.

My edit was immediately reversed with a message about honouring everyone's preferred pronoun as a blanket rule that is blind to any other context.

I draw the line at respecting serial killers. The state draws the line on their personal freedom. He is now in jail for life.

I speak as a member of the LGBTQ+ community and I was appalled that Wikipedia even considered what was evident from the outset a vexatious attempt by Denyer to manipulate the system in order to make his life more comfortable and to have easy access to women, who were his sole targets in his murders.

I think it's really important that Wikipedia not blind itself into what superficially appears as respect to LGBTQ+ by forgetting the points I have raised above. It was not well thought out to install the female pronouns. It was not even respecting transwomen or transmen by honouring Denyer's purported wishes. I can't think of a single person in the LGBTQ+ community who would want Denyer to be part of it or have any association with it. What changing Denyer's pronouns to female did was to legitimise claims from right-wing fascists that transgender people are only out there to exploit and be a danger to women.

As it turned out, very soon after discovering he was not going to be transferred to a women's prison he dropped the gender dysphoria claims.

Now, can we please change that ghastly picture with the plaits and use the one from his police interview?

Thank you. Snifferdogx (talk) 13:17, 30 June 2024 (UTC)