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(Redirected from Talk:Martin Ruzicka)

Requested move

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was: pages not moved now, no prejudice against moving individually.

Some editors want to treat some of these articles differently from others, as regards naming. Furthermore, this page doesn't seem to be a place where people are willing to discuss the separate requests separately, as there's been ample time to do so. Therefore I recommend that anyone who wants to see these names change should proceed by breaking this request, if not all the way down to individual requests, at least into pieces that are easier to talk about all at once. There might be some natural way of grouping them; I don't know.

This closure is neither an endorsement of the current names, nor an endorsement of the proposed names. We're just changing procedural gears here. If you have any questions about this close, or about how to proceed, please let me know. Thanks. - GTBacchus(talk) 06:38, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]



– Rename to include diacritics, to reflect the standard practice across most biographies. The name is used by the subject of this article. The name is used by most non-English sources, therefore Wikipedia:DIACRITIC#No established usage should apply here. Also please note, that the only articles in the "Czech ice hockey players", "Slovak ice hockey players" and "Slovenian ice hockey players" categories without diacritics in article titles, have been created by User:Dolovis. References for diacriticized names are included in given articles. - Darwinek (talk) 10:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment - A quick Google search confirms that each of the current article titles is the commonly used name per WP:COMMONNAME (with the exception of Martin Hlavacka where the usage is about equal):
    Martin Růžička = about 138,000 hits[1]
    Martin Ruzicka = about 1,670,000 hits[2]
    Peter Hamerlík = about 2,620 hits[3]
    Peter Hamerlik = about 18,300 hits[4]
    Ľubomír Pištek = about 1,730 hits[5]
    Lubomir Pistek = about 6,600 hits[6]
    Tomaž Razingar = about 3,120 hits[7]
    Tomaz Razingar = about 8,790 hits[8]
    Andrej Hočevar = about 32,500 hits[9]
    Andrej Hocevar = about 490,000 hits[10]
    David Květoň = about 6,190 hits[11]
    David Kveton = about 75,100 hits[12]
    Martin Hlavačka = about 25,100 hits[13]
    Martin Hlavacka = about 25,100 hits[14]
    David Hruška = about 72,000 hits[15]
    David Hruska = about 706,000 hits[16]
    Marián Smerčiak = about 86 hits[17]
    Marian Smerciak = about 2,770 hits[18]
    Sabahudin Kovačevič = about 4,160 hits[19]
    Sabahudin Kovacevic = about 14,600 hits[20] Dolovis (talk) 14:48, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    WP:DIACRITICS clearly lays out that counting pure google numbers is an invalid way to determine this because it is completely inaccurate. -DJSasso (talk) 14:51, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    I followed the method as laid out at WP:COMMONNAME. Dolovis (talk) 14:55, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    No actually you didn't which is why diacritics specifically mentions not using google search numbers. Because google search numbers are not all reliable sources as you need to use and because of OCR errors google search results often list characters with them as not having them etc. -DJSasso (talk) 14:59, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    No, actually I did. WP:DIACRITICS warns that “Search engines are problematic unless their verdict is overwhelming”, and in these cases the number of hits does demonstrate an overwhelming verdict. Dolovis (talk) 15:52, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Well this numbers are just wrong, because for example "Andrej Hocevar = about 490,000 hits[21]" also include the proper Andrej Hočevar variant (4X just on first page), not to mention first page of results includes myspace, facebook and (2X) youtube links. --Sporti (talk) 08:31, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    "A quick google search" never "confirms" anything. Period. - filelakeshoe 09:08, 16 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:HOCKEY compromise and non-existant guidelines on diacritics in personal names, whether in WP:AT or WP:UE. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Oppose use of Cyrillic these diacritics on English Wikipedia as most readers will not recognise them. --Bermicourt (talk) 21:16, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm ... nobody's talking here about using Cyrillic on English Wikipedia. Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 06:47, 15 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – If we really should enforce the WP:HOCKEY#Wikiproject notice compromise on all player articles (as the community is divided regarding use of diacritics), then there may be a few hundred other articles to also fix. HeyMid (contribs) 16:10, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    There are many other articles affected by this question. The "compromise" is nothing of the kind, by the way. All it is, simply, is a small group of editors who have decided to take the position that diacritics should be used as much as possible. They have various reasons for feeling that way, but... it's only a "compromise" between them.
    — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 23:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    That isn't the case at all. The compromise actually removes them from more pages than it adds them to. It removes them from every page involving the NHL or hockey in North America which greatly outnumbers the number of pages for actual players. There used to be battles on hundreds of pages adding and removing them. This compromise or whatever you choose to call it stopped that from happening on many pages so that on team pages/season pages/league pages/lists and whatever else exists they are removed. There are far more of those types of pages than there are player pages. -DJSasso (talk) 11:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Sure, sure... I don't agree with your compromise at all, though. As a matter of fact, I think that it's damaging to the community. If it didn't exist then there would have been quite a bit more discussion a while back, but it would have reached an actual conclusion eventually. The current situation just makes the dispute simmer on the back burner for everyone who cares about it at all, leaving it unresolved and festering, with minor eruptions every time that something like this comes up. Just because nobody is willing to be disruptive enough to get blocked over the issue doesn't mean that there's consensus for it. If you weren't around (as an admin, incidentally... you deny that has an effect, and it's certainly true that you've never make an overt threat to enforce things as an administrator, but the implied threat is obvious to everyone [except yourself?]), I'm certain that things would be much different among Ice Hockey articles, at least (which are now pointed to as a reason to generally move to a "diacritics wherever possible" system). Anyway, I don't expect to really be heard about this. It'll simply to continue to fester, unresolved. Such is life.
    — V = IR (Talk • Contribs) 22:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • V = IR is absolutely correct. There is no WP:HOCKEY compromise. The links offered in support of this mythical compromise just send you out on a Snipe hunt. Dolovis (talk) 01:20, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow. The number of times you just blatantly ignore established procedures on Wikipedia really begs the question of if you actually look into any of these things before stating your opinion on them. To say that no compromise exists, when it has in fact been around for quite some time, and followed by most WP:HOCKEY members, is absolute craziness. It's getting beyond too difficult to take anything you say here seriously. – Nurmsook! talk... 13:19, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. It is important for an encyclopedia to be consistent in the naming of articles. So we should have as close to one naming convention for peoples names as is practical. Anything less is confusing. The policies listed by the above opinions in support of this really are supporting this basic need. When we have a project saying that we can override those conventions for certain sports players when they make sense for the rest of the encyclopedia, we are asking for confusion in naming. If a specific form of someone's name is more commonly used in English, that is what we should be using. The fact that in their native land they have a different name is something that is covered in the articles lead and not the title. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:51, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    Ridiculous argument. The move proposal is perfectly in line with general Wikipedia practice, general practice in English reference works such as Britannica or Webster, and with the naming guideline (unless you interpret it incorrectly). About 4% of our article titles contain diacritics. The number of article titles that could conceivably contain diacritics but don't is significantly less. (Less than 1%, but I don't have an estimate for the number since my random experiments haven't turned up any so far.) Hans Adler 05:23, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Vegaswikian. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:26, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Hans put it nicely. Agathoclea (talk)
  • Oppose for procedural reasons. (Can't support 100% either way) I think there is too much variation. That said, I would not move Ruzicka, Hocevar or Hruska. Those seem to have enough English sources without the diacritics to satisfy commonname (for the purposes of this English wiki). The rest don't IMO, and I would not object to moves as their notability is primarily in Europe. But examining the content might reveal otherwise. ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 21:30, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • And you make a key point, that some of these may make sense, but as a group nomination we are not really discussing those. For those articles where there are reliable sources for the rename, they should be renominated on that basis. This gets articles at the correct name and ends the drama of this long discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:44, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't see why we can't discuss them individually right here and now. Nobody's stopping you; just say which ones should move and which ones should stay. Why not?

        I guess it would freak people out too much, and we need to close this and open separate requests so people see recognizable procedures behaving predictably.... it would be a lot more efficient to just sort it all out once and be done with it.

        Should I go ahead and close this, and recommend that they be brought back as individuals? The discussion's not quite stale, but I don't see us reaching a conclusion on this talk page, at this time, about all those articles. -GTBacchus(talk) 04:43, 21 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

RfC: Multiple move requests

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Should we tolerate multiple move requests, possibly contrary to WP:AT, that are all be placed at the same location, or should each move request be made on its own page so the merits of the many move requests can be discussed on a case-by-case basis? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dolovis (talkcontribs)

  • It seems sensible to have these discussions all at the same place, rather than dispersed over 10 different talk pages; there appear to be appropriate notifications on each talk page to the effect, so people will know to come here. What's the issue? --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 05:06, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
What's the issue? It is an effort of the "anti-diacritics fighters" to complicate things a bit more. We jump from a talk page to another and parrot the same words over and over. The result is still the same, as far as I know, but I have to admit that the effort is entirely legitimate. It is a big trump in the hands of the "anti-diacritics fighters", and they are able to take advantage of this. It is apparently entertaining for some editors, but not for me. Nobody forces me to comment here, however, I feel that I have to help to prevent chaos and inconsistency and I comment in the "discussions" like a stupid monkey. I'm afraid we can hardly stop this, unless we compile a precise guideline about using diacritics in the article titles. Their strategy consists of reverting and copypasting three sentences on various forums, and it is an interesting and good strategy. It wins over rational thinking. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 06:21, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
One of the other requested moves for Czech hockey players claimed the name had diacritics but at the time it was filed, there was no reference showing the form of the name with diacritics, so it was being requested with a handwaving reason. Indeed no reference was provided until several days after the requested move was started. This seems to violate WP:BLP - moving to a name that is not attested to is not verified. This is why each living person should be examined closely to see if the references support the request. 65.94.47.63 (talk) 10:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure I see the issue, it is common practice, and actually preferred to have discussions happen in one place so that they don't have to be rehashed over and over again in multiple places. -DJSasso (talk) 14:34, 23 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing is stopping editors from discussing the individual articles individually, and on this page. Just start talking about each one, and work out which one(s), if any, should stay and which one(s), if any, should move. There's no need to fuss about which venue to use; just discuss. -GTBacchus(talk) 18:17, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

oblique case

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The last edit changed the name in the lede from Martin Ruzicka to Martina Růžičku, which I guess is genitive case. (This is only an educated guess, so I won't revert.) I'm all for diacritics but let's leave him in the nominative case when he's subject of the sentence. —Tamfang (talk) 23:00, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would be the accusative. But yes, even when he isn't the subject of the sentence, English is not an inflective language. - filelakeshoe 15:31, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]