The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been designated as a contentious topic.
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more transgender people. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard.
This page is not a forum for general discussion about List of people killed for being transgender, gender, or sex. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about List of people killed for being transgender, gender, or sex at the Reference desk.
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.
This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:
no consensus for now, 20 November 2008 (UTC), see discussion.
While the biographies of living persons policy does not apply directly to the subject of this article, it may contain material that relates to living persons, such as friends and family of persons no longer living, or living persons involved in the subject matter. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons must be removed immediately. If such material is re-inserted repeatedly, or if there are other concerns related to this policy, please see this noticeboard.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Death, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Death on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DeathWikipedia:WikiProject DeathTemplate:WikiProject DeathDeath articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Discrimination, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Discrimination on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DiscriminationWikipedia:WikiProject DiscriminationTemplate:WikiProject DiscriminationDiscrimination articles
This article is part of WikiProject Gender studies. This WikiProject aims to improve the quality of articles dealing with gender studies and to remove systematic gender bias from Wikipedia. If you would like to participate in the project, you can choose to edit this article, or visit the project page for more information.Gender studiesWikipedia:WikiProject Gender studiesTemplate:WikiProject Gender studiesGender studies articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Human rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Human rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Human rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Human rightsTemplate:WikiProject Human rightsHuman rights articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Law, an attempt at providing a comprehensive, standardised, pan-jurisdictional and up-to-date resource for the legal field and the subjects encompassed by it.LawWikipedia:WikiProject LawTemplate:WikiProject Lawlaw articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBTQ+ studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all LGBTQ-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the project page or contribute to the discussion.LGBTQ+ studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBTQ+ studiesLGBTQ+ studies articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lists, an attempt to structure and organize all list pages on Wikipedia. If you wish to help, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.ListsWikipedia:WikiProject ListsTemplate:WikiProject ListsList articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sexology and sexuality, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of human sexuality on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Sexology and sexualityWikipedia:WikiProject Sexology and sexualityTemplate:WikiProject Sexology and sexualitySexology and sexuality articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Sociology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of sociology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SociologyWikipedia:WikiProject SociologyTemplate:WikiProject Sociologysociology articles
@Buidhe: I explained in my edit summary why it is not appropriate to include the case of Kesaria Abramidze in this article. Neither of the sources say that she was killed because she was transgender. You are an experienced editor. Why do you think that the criteria for inclusion in this article, and the edit notice, somehow do not apply? And what on earth did you mean by your edit summary? Sweet6970 (talk) 11:31, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know if we're reading the same sources because the claim is clearly being made that her transgender status is related to the murder. If it's not relevant, why would the articles mention the anti-trans law that was passed the previous day? (t · c) buidhe13:21, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are reading the same sources – neither of which say that she was killed for being transgender. … why would the articles mention the anti-trans law that was passed the previous day? You would have to ask the Guardian and the BBC that. The Guardian actually says:" Although the motive behind Abramidze’s murder remains unclear, her death was swiftly cast by Georgian civil society as part of a state campaign against minorities in the country." i.e. they are reporting the claim of others that there is a connection, but correctly saying that the motive behind Abramidze’s murder remains unclear which means that this death does not, at this stage, qualify for inclusion in this article. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have now deleted this item. It could, obviously, be reinstated if there is a source saying definitely that she was killed for being transgender, but that would have to wait until there has been a trial and conviction. Sweet6970 (talk) 12:00, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed here; while it is certainly plausible that she was killed for being transgender, there is as-of-yet a shortage of evidence indicating as much. AmityCity (talk) 20:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@AmityCity: I see you have reinstated the entry for Cherry Bush. But the sources are still only about the prosecution’s allegations. There is nothing saying that this was definitely a hate crime: this entry should be deleted. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:14, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
An eyewitness account, the district attorney, and the Los Angeles Police Department have all stated in no uncertain terms that the suspect killed Cherry immediately following "disparaging comments based on her perceived gender identity." . There is no other known connection between the victim and suspect. There is a preponderance of evidence supporting this. What position exactly would support the idea that this was not a hate crime...? AmityCity (talk) 21:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What we have in the sources are allegations. What we need is a reliable source saying that this was a hate crime. We should not be making this judgment ourselves. It’s strange that this death occurred in 2022, yet there is no source about any conviction. It’s possible that the person accused was acquitted, or that the charge was dropped. Without a source saying definitely that this was a transphobic hate crime, this entry should be deleted. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This still doesn’t provide definite information that she was killed because she was transgender. And no-one has so far provided a source about what the situation is regarding any trial. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:49, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Suspect is being held in custody, still awaiting trial as of earlier this year. Looks like it got transferred and is being tried in San Bernadino. The American legal process moves pretty slowly.
Legitimately, I'm uncertain how one can view "someone ran into a stranger, made expressly transphobic comments to her and then killed her with no other demonstrated motive" as anything other than her being killed because she was transgender. All authorities on the subject are saying it was a clear hate crime. What is the standard of proof you require -- for anyone to be added to this list, does their killer have to write a signed confession saying "this was a hate crime"? The killer is not named here -- we are not ascertaining any individual's guilt -- but for the reason for Cherry's death, there is overwhelming evidence indicating transphobia as the motive; and not even a crumb of evidence suggesting otherwise. If you are able to find any please let me know. AmityCity (talk) 20:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the information about the situation on the trial. No-one has yet been convicted, so what we have at present are allegations. This article is a list of people killed for being transgender i.e. we are saying in wikivoice that Cherry Bush was killed for being transgender. We should only do this is there is a reliable source saying so. At present, there isn’t. If there is a conviction, then presumably there will be. In the meantime, her name should be deleted. Sweet6970 (talk) 13:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As people have been pointing out for years, that is an absurdly high bar for inclusion, since most cases will never result in a conviction where the killer's motive is established in court. Nothing in any reliable source requires us to restrict our list based on the killer's motive. That restriction was invented by Wikipedia editors, and it has resulted in a hopelessly biased wiki page that systematically distorts and misrepresents the subject matter by arbitrarily excluding most victims from the list. If the goal is to represent what reliable sources say about the subject, this article should be about trans victims of homicide, since that's how news organizations, human rights groups, medical associations, and academics frame the issue. Jd4v15 (talk) 01:19, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
.svg){kind=small}
