Talk:Festivali i Këngës 47

Sims2: FIK & Albania in ESC merger

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the merger request was no consensus. No solution could be agreed upon by both sides so both pages will remain. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 05:15, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

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I don't know if you know this, but FIK has always had a yearly page that's different from the Eurovision page about Albania. FIK is not only about Eurovision, it's a national contest first and foremost, with it's own identity and it's own history. Eurovision is simply an extra from the recent years, that's why it doesn't have much weight in the FIK pages. ESC is discussed in the "Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest" pages, not the FIK ones. We appreciate you contributions to the FIK pages, but let's not fuse two different contests into one and let's not ignore their long individual histories. Exo (talk) 10:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I already redirected it again, but I will move back pending the outcome of this discussion. True the contest has always had its own page but remember WP:OSE, just because something was always done a certain way does not mean that it is or was the best way. Now all selection processes are being included in the Country in ESC by year articles, including Melodifestivalen which has dozens of articles on its own that will be merged. Each country in ESC year article is about what the country did to prepare for ESC, so about choosing the entrant, promotion, final results, etc. It doesn't make sense to duplicate all of that just so FIK can have its own article. For example see Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest 2008 (a WP:Good Article, its complete) the contest was Eurosong 2008, but it works great and makes sense in the article. Now I get what you are saying about how the contest did not start off as a ESC selection and has only become one in the past few years, but it has moved into the role of a selection, and is more notable for that. There isn't much help with ESC related articles, so having a separate article with identical information is more of a hassle. It will hinder getting the Albania 2009 article up for Good Article status because of a lack of content etc. This has been discussed by the Wikiproject and consensus currently seems to be to merge these types of articles. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 15:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't know who told you that Festivali I Kenges is more notable for Eurovision selection, but if you go to Albania they will strongly disagree. What this "merger" does is that it completely erases the identity and history of FIK, it disturbs it's current template which allows for every edition to be documented in a year-by-year basis, ESC or non-ESC year, and then somehow makes Eurovision the primary contest. That is not the order of sequence. First comes FIK selection, then comes Eurovision participation. However FIK is not simply a selection process for ESC, this is a national festival and therefore it cannot be overstepped by a bigger contest just because it selects an entry for that contest. This is like saying: Well, instead of having a page about France, we should have a page called "France in the European Union". FIK does not concentrate around Eurovision. Eurovision is a post-FIK event. Therefore "Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest" relates to the process AFTER the winner has been chosen, and that's what it's primary focus should be. What a page like that does is it overrides the identity of FIK and makes it a "child" contest of ESC. FIK is entitled to have it's own identity, each edition has it's number and year, and the Eurovision process is only one recently-added element of it.. Exo (talk) 18:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

For me, I believe that there should be one article for the moment. There is currently very little information on this year's FIK to contribute to two articles, and it makes no sense to have a practical duplicate. Maybe at a later date we can talk about splitting it, but for now there is no real need for two articles. Sims2aholic8 (Michael) (talk) 18:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

No one's saying that its only popular or only used for ESC, it is a national song contest who's winner represents Albania at ESC. Its a little silly to claim that you can't merge because it will mess up the template, just fix the target link and put the nav box in that section. Also, the point of the contest has moved on to being the selection method for Albania, not just the local contest it used to be. The article Albania in ESC 2009 is about what Albania did for ESC that year and that no doubt includes FIK, why should it be separate? To make a stand that its more than just a selection method for ESC? FIK as a whole has a page where all of that is described: the history, etc. We can create a more comprehensive article if we only have to worry about one page. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 20:30, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Well then why don't you fix the links in the Eurovision templates to show "Festivali I Kenges 47" instead of "Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest 2009". Because the problem with your proposal is that it erases FIK's importance, and it makes FIK's editions a "branch" of Eurovision. That undermines FIK's individual importance and makes Eurovision more important than FIK itself. The "Albania in the ESC 2009" page can certainly describe what happened during FIK in brief and provide a link to the actual FIK 47 page like it currently does, but it's main focus should be what happened in the post-FIK ESC process. FIK 47 in itself is an individual event and needs a separate page. Just like a country or a state has a different page, and then it's relations within a union have a different page. Doing otherwise would undermine one or the other. Exo (talk) 22:14, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The article is supposed to be about every aspect relating to that country's participation that year and this is well established. It should describe the choosing of the song and artist, what was done for promotion, how the song fared at the contest and then conclude with what happened after the contest. You seem to be trying to make it all about FIK and making it seem like the winner "just so happens" to go represent them at ESC. ESC is now a major part of the contest, it has changed and is no longer just a national song contest, it is more. Having it as part of the Albania in ESC 2009 page does not lower it to a sub contest of the ESC, rather it allows it to be seen in a better perspective that better represents what actually happened. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 22:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

So why don't you change the page of Greece for example and make it "Greece in the European Union", because that also might allow Greece to be seen in a better perspective that better represents Greece, not just as a nation but as a nation within a union. Additionally, ESC is not a major part of FIK...again, I don't know where you're getting this information from, in fact it is barely mentioned during the show and it has a very small section in the FIK website. Festivali I Kenges has been a national contest for 47 years and that's what takes priority for the Albanian people. The ESC process is a different element and an annex to the show, therefore it cannot take the lead title and override FIK itself. Just like a union cannot override a country or a state. It's uncyclopedic. Exo (talk) 22:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not here to cater to the "priorities of the Albanian people" rather it serves an international audience. Having the contest as a subsection does not "override" FIK. Melodifestivalen is a similar case, but its combined into the Sweden in ESC by year articles as well (in the process). Your Greece argument is irrelevant because it is a completely different case. The history of Greece has nothing to do with it being part of the EU. Greece in the EU would probably describe actions that Greece did that affected the EU, just as the Albania article talks about FIK 47 and how it affected the ESC. The difference is that the 2009 contest does not trace back centuries and no information is left out, while with FIK 47, everything that happened has to do with ESC overall as its result determines Albania's entrant. I'll remind you again that there is a general FIK article with the history of the contest as a whole. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh thank you for the reminder, but let me also remind you that FIK's sub-branches are FIK 1, FIK 2, FIK 3, FIK 4 etc...not FIK 1, FIK 2, Albania in ESC, FIK 4, FIK 5... Your system disrupts FIK's template and tries to make it a sub-servant of ESC, while it's ESC who relies on FIK's results and therefore the ESC templates are the ones who should follow FIK's standardized results, whenever FIK is used as a preselector. The international audience will have to understand that Albania represents itself through a contest called FIK every year, not a contest called "Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest". Exo (talk) 23:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Stop obsessing over the template, it won't be obvious that its a section of the ESC page. Where does it say that the contest's name was Albania in the ESC??? It says or would say, Albania selected its entrant through FIK 47 and then describe it exactly the way it would be on the lone FIK 47 page, so having two pages with the same info is counterproductive. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 23:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The whole point is that the page should be FIK 47, as the event is FIK 47. The event is not "Albania in ESC 2009". Albania in ESC is a process, not an event. FIK 47 describes the national event called Festivali I Kenges 47 that happens on a local level in Albania. "Albania in ESC 2009" focuses mostly on the journey of the FIK winner towards ESC participation. Exo (talk) 23:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The Albania page does not only focus on the winner, its main focus is the selection as a whole. Don't take it personal, this is not a way of reducing the importance of the contest and saying that its only important because it chooses the ESC entrant, but you have to admit that the ESC has made it more notable on an international level. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 00:56, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Break

After reading through this, is the contest Notable on its own with out the inclusion of the Eurovision selection? Does it follow the Notability guidelines? Please do not respond "Yes". Back it up. If the contest is not notable on its own, then it should be merged into the Eurovision page. And please remember, even if a contest is popular, it still does not make it notable for wikipedia. It must follow the guidelines. Right now it is looking like it is on the non-notable side, since only the years Albania participated in the Eurovsion Song Contest have pages.Greekboy (talk) 00:04, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, 47 years of history are pretty hard not to notice by anyone's guideliness. And I would not be against a merger with ESC participation at all, but the way that it's being proposed is that the title of the page would be "Albania in the Eurovision Song Contest 2009" instead of "Festivali I Kenges 47". The event is Festivali I Kenges 47. Nothing changes the event and the page in itself would be about the local event. The "Albania in Eurovision" process is a different matter that focuses on the ESC participation of the FIK winner rather than on the local festival. If you merge the two, you would have to explain why "Albania in ESC" takes priority over "FIK 47"...when in fact ESC relies on FIK results, not the other way around. Exo (talk) 00:29, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Here is an example: http://en.wiki.x.io/wiki/United_States_presidential_election_in_Alabama,_2008

The elections in the state of Alabama for President are in one page, however the primaries for the Democrats and Republicans are in separate pages that are linked in that page. If the primaries are part of the election process, why aren't they also merged in the elections page? Exo (talk) 00:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

You have a point there, but we need to find a solution to not have double info on both pages. Although this is a music festival, it has transformed in recent years into a selection process. Basically the prize to the winner is to represent Albania in ESC. So in recent years, it is sort of like a selection process rather than a music contest in it's own merit. Greekboy (talk) 00:47, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Festivali I Kenges is the most important music contest in Albania where artists have the hardest time even qualifying to enter. I would personally propose a different set of pages for the ESC process which simply outlines the national final and gives a link to it's page while focusing mainly on the ESC process itself, instead of merging national final and ESC-process together which are not always that interconnected, like in the case of FIK. In some cases the ESC prize is just an element of the show instead of the main focus. ESC should not just "swallow up" smaller contests. Exo (talk) 01:02, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

You never responded to me above, but my problem is that everything needs to be consistent. Also not every selection process is notable on its own; some are just national finals. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 01:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well FIK is a 47 year old contest which is notable on it's own, and that notability should stretch in each of it's editions as a result. You cannot say that FIK is notable, but FIK 20 is not because obviously we're talking about an edition of a very notable contest. Each edition therefore should have it's page. Each ESC-process should also have it's page. The event is FIK 47, therefore there needs to be a page about FIK 47. The process is "Albania in ESC 2009", therefore there needs to be a page explaining the process of Albania's participation in ESC. In order to avoid double info, there could simply be a link to FIK 47, just like US Presidential Elections and Primaries which have their own individual pages. That way the double info is avoided in the ESC pages and the FIK branches remain uniform regardless of whether Albania used it or not as a preselector. If someone wants to find out more about the 47th edition of Festivali I Kenges, they should be able to find it in it's own page, instead of assuming in their minds that FIK 47 was actually the NF for ESC 09. Exo (talk) 01:27, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

We run into what should be included on the country page, not just a link because then the page wouldn't be very comprehensive. Grk1011/Stephen (talk) 01:30, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well it's pretty hard to justify the merging of a national event and an international process which threatens the identity of a long-running institution just for the sake of "comprehensiveness". I don't see the individual US elections and primary pages being that comprehensive either. This is about encyclopedic information that's easily found in it's proper pages. FIK and it's editions are one thing, ESC and it's entries are another. There is a point where the two connect, but not nearly enough to override one contest for the sake of another. I think there's space for both without being repetitive and without undermining one or the other. Exo (talk) 02:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested merger. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.