Talk:Elmo Zumwalt

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Elmo zumwalt was my great grandfather he was very brave. I miss him very very much my name is Allison Zumwalt and I am proud to be a ZUMWALT
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.209.24.254 (talk) 15:35, 15 November 2005

(V device)

Some mention might be included of Zumwalt's permission to later CNO Michael Boorda to wear a "V" device on a Vietnam service ribbon. Reportedly the ensuing controversy led to Boorda's suicide though Zumwalt was long retired and therefore did not have authority to authorize the device in any case.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.139.236 (talk) 00:16, 29 May 2006

--Zumwalt did not give permission in any official sense. He simply stated his opinion that Borda's wearing a Combat V was not a problem.
--Johnfmh 18:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The Navy Board that investigated the question (at the behest of Boorda's son) determined that Boorda wasn't entitled to wear the V's.
--DesScorp (talk) 18:38, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

(Race)

He wanted to ease the stressful life aboard ships. Racial tensions were not a concern of his.
GhostofSuperslum 13:03, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Zumwalt was very concerned about racial tensions. Read, among other things, his memoir On Watch. Several of the Z-grams were specifically aimed at this; e.g., Z-gram #66: EQUAL OPPORTUNITY IN THE NAVY
PRRfan 13:44, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Someone has probably substituted an inflammatory statement into the Wikipedia article. "Equal opportunity" (i. e., "Mister Elusive") is not the same thing as "Racial tensions." I worked as a crew member of an aircraft carrier for four years. We were so busy that there was little time for "Racial tensions." Some people got up on the wrong side of the rack ("bed" in Navy talk) every day, but most anxieties disappeared due to sweating and muscular fatigue. The hardest-working white men that I have ever known toiled on that aircraft carrier. They were greasy and so tired that they would sleep on the flight deck (the outermost deck that is made of steel). I have photographs of them in a "cruise book." Crewmen had little time to indulge in the pursuit of "racial tensions" or similar arbitrary behavior. Many crewnen worked 12 hours or more each day. Each crewman was assigned to a single duty station. They didn't roam about from space to space griping like civilians do. Any time that a sailor is not at his duty station when he is supposed to be there, he is AWOL (absent without leave) and may be charged with being AWOL, which is a violation of the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice). Hard work blunted the appearance of much "racial tension" aboard the USS Forrestal (CVA-59 when I was a member of her crew.
GhostofSuperslum 17:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I see your point. But Zumwalt himself believed there were racial tensions (the Z-gram lays this out), and acted accordingly.
PRRfan 18:39, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sailors onboard the USS Forrestal did not form racial groups and engage in confrontations with members of other racial groups. Some individuals were adventurous sorts, but that is true everyplace on earth. "Racial tensions" did not reach a feverish level like the article suggests. Various people spoke on common subjects such as baseball, football, and whether or not to become a "lifer" (career man). Being or not being a "lifer" was probably the commonest topic of conversation outside of the development of one's work skills, the safety (from a shipboard fire) of the ship, the food being served that day, and the proficiency of the ship. I disagree with the inclusion of the phrase "racial tensions" in the article. It suggests that people were aboil with hatreds, but there was not much squabbling taking place. A lot of work is involved in fueling, arming, maintaining, and supporting about 60 aircraft onboard a Navy aircraft carrier. Life goes on. I am exiting this talk page forever.
GhostofSuperslum 19:35, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Sea Control Ship

If memory serves, Zumwalt was an advocate in the 1970s of reducing the U.S. Navy's use of multirole aircraft carriers in favor of sea control ships. IIRC, the SCS would be tasked with the defensive role of protecting sea lanes from Soviet/hostile forces while the carriers themselves would serve an exclusively offensive role. Obviously, the U.S. Navy was not restructured along those lines, but it would be helpful to have some information on this subject added to the article. 209.195.164.34 18:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Not just the SCS, but an entire section should be devoted to Zumwalt's High-Low concept, which would have radically changed the fleet (for good or ill). Zumwalt's idea of a large purchase of smaller, cheaper ships to compliment expensive ships was revolutionary, and deeply and bitterly opposed by the Navy's establishment. They did everything they could to kill it, and largely won. We were supposed to get 8 Sea Control Ships (with VSTOL fighters) and got none. We were supposed to get hundred of Pegasus class hydrofoils, and got 6. We got none of the sea-skimming transports he envisioned. Of the new classes of inexpensive vessels to build fleet numbers that Zumwalt proposed, only the Perry Class Frigates were built in appreciable numbers.DesScorp (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Family section possible error.

In the family section it states that ADM Zumwalt's great grandson is a naval academy graduate and is in training to become an EOD expert. The great grandson I know training for EOD graduated from Tulane University and not USNA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.201.23.10 (talk) 14:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Youngest Admiral

The article correctly states that Zumwalt was the youngest CNO. Some sources claim that he was the youngest ever promoted to rear admiral at 44 but in fact The youngest US rear admiral was Harold B. "Min" Miller, who became Nimitz's public relations officer. He was promoted in 1945 at the age of 42. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.223.6.208 (talk) 16:49, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Agent Orange section

This reads like a violation of NPOV. I suggest it be removed because it doesn't add anything to the article.
--72.205.202.200 (talk) 03:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

[preceding sig is that of] Ryan (who also attended Tulare Union High School)
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.202.200 (talk) 03:18, 14 September 2008 (UTC) _{Material added in same edit, but after sig, has been reformatted and supplemented, for clarity of apparent intent, by Jerzy•t 09:58, 22 April 2014 (UTC)}

Over-sectionization

The following section structure

1 Early life and education

2 Entrance into the US Navy

3 World War II

4 Marriage

5 Command assignments

6 Flag assignments

o 6.1 Vietnam

o 6.2 Chief of Naval Operations

7 Retirement

8 Later years

9 Family and home life

10 Books

11 Elmo Zumwalt III's death

12 Elmo Zumwalt II's Death

13 Legacy

14 Medals and decorations

o 14.1 United States

+ 14.1.1 US Military medals and decorations

+ 14.1.2 US Civilian medals and decorations

o 14.2 Foreign medals and decorations

15 Miscellaneous

16 See also

17 References

18 Further reading

19 External links

would normally indicate the need to split the article, but only reflects the number of 1- to 4-'graph sections. (One section is a single sentence!) For instance, "Medals and decorations" should consist of three bullet lists, not two more levels of sections. I'm tentatively collapsing 7-9 and 11-12 into one section, at least for the sake of chronology; seeing the narrative uninterrupted will facilitate sounder visualization of any (less vigorous) division needed within that section.
--Jerzy•t 01:09, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

In line with the above, I have changed the title of the section "Elmo Zumwalt Jr.'s death" to simply "Death". Since there is no longer a separate section on his son's death, the title "Elmo Zumwalt Jr.'s death" was confusing, not clarifying.
173.45.200.48 (talk) 22:16, 13 September 2012 (UTC)

Secondary education

I found

Zumwalt, an Eagle Scout and recipient of the Distinguished Eagle Scout Award from the Boy Scouts of America, attended Tulare Union High School in Tulare, California, where he became the valedictorian, and Rutherford Preparatory School in Long Beach, California.

I'm splitting the Scout matters into a separate sentence, especially since his scouting is unlikely to have been the major factor determining where he went to high school.
As to Tulare and Rutherford, mentioning them in that order may reflect the common confusion between a biography and a resume, or just disregard for details of chronology; as valedictorians normally have that role in their senior classes, and only in remarkable circumstances need time in a prep school between graduation and college, i infer the prep school preceded the public sr high. But refs would of course be welcome.
--Jerzy•t 02:18, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Gale ref

I'm unsuccessful in trying to consult the content implied by the confusing ref

Contemporary Authors Online, Gale, 2009. Reproduced in Biography Resource Center. Farmington Hills, Michigan: Gale, 2009.

A thesis at http://etd.lib.ttu.edu/theses/available/etd-09262008-31295012833801/unrestricted/31295012833801.pdf looks promising, and i'll add page refs from it (starting abt p. 15) when i come back to provide refs in place of the one i'm removing.
--Jerzy•t 02:59, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Stop

Could someone stop writing the prase "he/she not regret" in anything involve Vietnam? Admiral Elmo lost a son to Agent Orange, and found out that he's been fooled about the impact of the chemistry, result in many cases of cancer/health problem among the man under his control. And somehow he's "not regret" that's his order closed his own son's fate?

Stop making matyr out of people please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zeraful (talk • contribs) 06:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Zumwalt at Oak Ridge in World War II?

In his book "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!"(Bantam Books, Ralph Leighton, 1986; p. 105-6, 107), Richard Feynman of Los Alamos indicates that his escort at Oak Ridge was a certain Lt. Zumwalt. Issues included criticality safety and plant design. It seems that this Mr. Zumwalt was quite impressed with Mr. Feinman as are we all. 166.129.168.16 (talk) 18:23, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The Lt Zumwalt who met Feynman isn't this Elmo “Bud” Zumwalt Jr. Chapter 4 of the biography Zumwalt: The Life and Times of Admiral Elmo Russell “Bud” Zumwalt, Jr (Larry Berman, 2012, Harper-Collins; pp. 70-93) details the Admiral's war years on destroyers, not assigned to Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Neither do the biography's index nor Admiral Zumwalt's own autobiography On Watch mention time at Oak Ridge. JohnLam (talk) 21:18, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Frances Frank Zumwalt's origins

Saralee Zumwalt's son (Saralee was his sister), Richard Crowe, did a lot of research on the origins of his grandmother Frances Frank. Based upon his research, as well as DNA testing, it was established that Frances Frank was not adopted, but actually was the biological daughter of the Franks. It is documented in the new biography of Admiral Zumwalt, which is referenced in the article. I was shocked when I found this out, but evidently Frances Frank Zumwalt had been lying for years. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk} 02:18, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

A misquote?

Under the section "Flag Assignments: Vietnam," the quote about being a lawyer sounds odd. Although it is written verbatim as it appears in the younger Zumwalt's obituary, it reads like the quote should say "I am not a lawyer and don't think I can prove it in court ." The obituary does not state Zumwalt was an attorney, or give any biographical information after his service in Vietnam. The original article in the New York Times mMagazine, from which the obituary takes the quote, was called "Agent Orange and the Anguish of an American family," August 24, 1986. I leave it to someone to find, if possible.Purplethree (talk) 16:07, :08, & :16, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Purplethree made 3 separate edits over the course of 10 minutes to the signed 'graph immediately above. The italics are theirs, and were applied in the first (16:07) edit. The second (16:08) one corrected 2 single-char typos (upcasing m to M and inserting omitted f), and removed the "and ... court" phrase. The third added the "The obituary ... Vietnam. sentence.
--Jerzy•t 11:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

  At LA Times review of My Father, My Son, i find

His son, Lt. Elmo Zumwalt III, against his father's hopes and wishes, volunteered and became the commander of one such craft, the "swift boats" of the admiral's brown-water navy. There he served for a year with uncommon heroism and survived without immediate injury. But, with the inevitability of Greek tragedy, he was exposed on many occasions to areas heavily sprayed with Agent Orange.
A few years after returning from Vietnam, after happily marrying and completing law school, Zumwalt III's child, Elmo IV, was born ....

and i presume the reviewer meant "after [Zumwalt III] returning from Vietnam ..." rather than (what the grammar says they meant) "after [Zumwalt III's child] returning from Vietnam"! Thus the NYTM presumably lived up to its standard, and the fact that the obit fails to mention his law degree (perhaps he never practiced) has negligible probative value.
  I haven't looked at what the article currently says on this matter, but it seems clear P3'S concern last fall was unfounded.
--Jerzy•t 11:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

In the Wiki article the sentence currently reads, "I am a lawyer and I don't think I can prove in court..." Which still seems an odd phrasing. But, whatever.Purplethree (talk) 16:40, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

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Dates of rank

Do we really need all the pictures in the dates of rank section? Mztourist (talk) 07:55, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Well, that's the case across a majority of the United States admirals bio pages, so this shld be part of a more all-encompassing question. SuperWIKI (talk) 08:20, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

A minor error but Zumwalt DID hold the rank of Rear Admiral (Lower Half) O-7 but before 1981 Navy and Coast Guard RADM/O-7 wore 2-Stars but were paid as a one-Star and by date of rank they were often Junior to Army, Air Force and Marine Corps Brigadier Generals. When a RADM(LH)/O-7 was advanced to RADM(Upper Half) they became 0-8 and got paid as a 2-Star. There is a good explanation of this in the Wikipedia entry: “Rear admiral (United States)”

In keeping with Wikipedia past practices, I doubt this correction will be made. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8806:3202:3500:AC69:281C:A583:C435 (talk) 00:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Elmo Sr

The article says Elmo Sr was a doctor. Was he perchance the Lt Col Elmo R Zumwalt who was the first CO of the Army's 30th Field Hospital during WW II?

https://www.med-dept.com/unit-histories/30th-field-hospital-second-hospitalization-unit-platoon/ 104.153.40.58 (talk) 00:49, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes!!! Elmo Sr. (My grandfather), was, in fact, the first CO of the Army 30th Field Hospital during WWII. An amazingly accomplished man as were all of his children! 107.15.183.42 (talk) 10:55, 8 September 2023 (UTC)