Talk:Deportation of Armenian intellectuals on 24 April 1915

Comment

Any sources to confirm the following?!

There is also a tendency among sources to concentrate the event around the date of 24 April 1915, giving an impression of immediate arrests on that date and prompt exiling, although a case-by-case approach may diminish the validity of that impression.

Where are the mentioned "cases"?

Very good idea to create a list of deportees of 24 April 1915

Hello everybody, It is a very good idea - though not without difficulties - to create a list of the deportees of 11 April 1915 (old calendar) 24 April respectively. I encourage you to write biographical articles in a second step about all these deportees.

It is a very important task! The only source up to now in the article is Kâmuran Gürün. That looks a little bit meager to me. Eyewitness accounts should be added: Krikor Balakian, for the clergy especially Teotik (Teodoros Teodoros Lapçinciyan [1]) sure!!! And letters of the deportees (Komitas, Krikor Zohrab, etc.) are valuable sources as well. The number of deportees is difficult to tell. Unless you follow each (famous) deportee individually you may end in a maze.

Timeline: What days should one focus on? Easter Saturday to Easter Monday 1915, the first wave of arrestation? The whole following week? Depending on the days you focus on you will have +/- 250 deportees or far more.

The black list that the collaborator Artin Mkrtichian handed over to the Young Turks?

The list of the Armenian railway workers in Eskişehir where the deportation train had to refuel water. The Armenian railway workers noticed that there was a deportation train to inner Anatolia and the deportees used the occasion to hand the workers down a list of the deportees. It was used to petition the release of the deportees through the patriarch Zaven Der Yeghiayan.

If you focus mainly on the upper class deportees of Constantinople of the period you will end up with a list of +/- 2.500 deportees.

Another valuable smaller source for the beginning: Garine Avakian: Եղեռնահուշ մասունք կամ խոստովանողք եւ վկայք խաչի [Relic of the Genocide or to those who suffered in the name of the cross and died for their faith], Yerevan, 2002 ISBN 99930-2-436-8. (explains on the basis of a rosary (Hamritsch) with the engraved names of the deportees, that a deportee himself, Varteres Attanesian (Nr. 71), produced, the events of Çankırı, the first deportation stop in Anatolia.) Garine Avakian mainly uses Balakian and the first hand account of Vartares Attanesian. The good thing is that she focuses on about 100 deportees. - That's a reasonable beginning!

My opinion: I think one should keep in eye as much as all the 2.500 upper class Armenians (there were several thousand lower class deportees from Constantinople as well). Their lives are most insightful for the events. Let's try to organize this! Apocolocynthosis (talk) 15:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC) PS. BTW Krikor Zohrab did not perish as stated in the article - he definitely was killed and the murderer's name is known! I am convinced this list is very, very important. We need biographical details as much as we can find. Let's start! Apocolocynthosis (talk) 15:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC) Reason for release should be mentioned as well. It looks strange otherwise. Some like Dikran Kelekian were teachers of Young Turkish politicians or their friends But Diran Kelekian was killed afterwards anyway 20 October 1915.Apocolocynthosis (talk) 15:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

The savage killing of Krikor Zohrab: Ahmet Refik Altınay [2] "Zohrab'ı tuttum, ayağımın altına aldım,taşla başına vura vura gebertdim ". [3] That's clear how he perished. We have to focus on the essentials in the spreadsheet and leave out details like evening dinners of Nakulian. These belong to their specific biographic articles. But it is questionable whether dinners are part of an encyclopedia. A proper language must be found. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 17:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I made some checked corrections and added new names, also deleted the part on Hunchakian Murad Poyajian (Medzn Murad or Murad of Hajin, the brother of Hunchakian hero Jirair), which confuses him with Dashnak revolutionary Murad of Sebastia (WWI Armenian volunteers commander, comrade of General Andranik). Its proved that they are different persons and there are articles in Wiki dedicated to each Murad. Andranikpasha (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of Fatma Müge Göçek's speech. Great source. Aren't there more deportees you can add to the list basing from her speech? Regards Apocolocynthosis (talk) 16:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

What is the purpose of the number given against each named deportee? The list is not arranged alphabetically, is there a reason behind their present ordering? Meowy 20:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no sense. The list has simply grown. As far as I know it's the longest I met up to now.

There are traditional lists of Krikor Balakian who has two separate lists for Ayas and Cankiri and he starts with the most famous or the Reverends and doctors respectively. And Teotiks lists (either in his year book or in his Golgotha of the Armenian clergy) that are not very logical for us nowadays (those grouped into ten different fates (e.g. those hiding in Bulgaria vs. (!) those leaving Turkey) or in nine professional groups). Teotig cannot serve as an example in categorizing - but is one of the best sources. Alphabetical order sounds good to me. We simply have to be aware that very well known people (like Zohrab) will be at the end. Numbers are good for orientation (how many are on the list?) but not very comfortable when we have to insert new names and I am sure there will be additional names. Well, just plain alphabetical order! You convinced me! Apocolocynthosis (talk) 21:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Translation

How would you translate ազգ. ու կրթ. գործիչ into English? I tried with 'patriot or educator'. What sounds more modern? - If I know more specific professions than given those by Teotig I'll use them but there are still a lot of deportees who are just 'patriots or educators' according to Teotig. That's not very satisfying. Apocolocynthosis (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The format of the table

It would have been much more readable if its layout was "the informational row + the textual row" for each person. I mean:

Person	Data I	Data II	Data III	Data IV
Notes on fate
Person I	...	...	...	...
...

Court martial section

The language here is not clear. One can only guess what information is meant to be conveyed. It needs research/improvement Hmains (talk) 03:15, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

New name

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move has been carried out. Closing request accordingly. - GTBacchus^(talk) 15:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

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...or

• Deportation of Armenian intellectuals in 1915
• Deportation of Armenian public figures in 1915

— "Armenian notables deported from Constantinople in 1915" is not a common name. --Yerevanci (talk) 01:39, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Names in Armenian

I don't think their names should be written in Armenian language in this page. It makes the page look too tacky and it actually goes against Wiki's rules. In Wiki rules, their names should only be written in the native language in their own page like Aram Andonian. Chaldean (talk) 07:33, 11 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think you're right, but as you see, most of the people don't have a separate page. --Yerevanci (talk) 01:31, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Coloured Dates

What's the purpose of having this template on the page? Irish Melkite (talk) 10:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Deportees

Whered the entire list of deportees go?! That was a really important for genocide researchers and scholars! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Proudbolsahye (talk • contribs) 01:14, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

References / footnotes

• I looked up all the given ISBNs, and provided the ISBNs, OCLC#'s, and LCCNs. I also rewrote quite a few to use citation templates for consistent formatting. (Where I modified names, etc. it was for consistency with the spelling used in the book records. I didn't change any 'article content' (only the names in the references), but some of the authors were not in the 'romanization' that libraries use.
• I didn't mess with further reading, but it has the same issue.
• I moved the notes on the table columns into a "note" group.
• I moved all the 'textual' comments out of 'References' into a "footnote" group.
• I changed the 'reference formatting' from hard 3 columns to 30em. It makes it autoformat based on the reader's screen width.
• I'd /like/ to combine the places where different pages of the same book are repeatedly cited, but that would be hard to do atm. Is anyone going to complain if I convert the citations to list-defined references? It'll let you actually /read/ the table markup, and I'll be able to use {{rp}} to condense the references more.

Revent (talk) 01:27, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

removing repeated names

I'm removing the names that are repeated in the list. The top 15 names are also mentioned in the list. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:47, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Deportation of Armenian notables on 24 April 1915/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: 1ST7 (talk · contribs) 05:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

I'll review this nomination. Initial comments should be posted soon. --1ST7 (talk) 05:58, 19 October 2013 (UTC)

At first glance, this article looks more like a list, which would be ineligible for promotion to GA status. You may want to consider nominating it at Wikipedia:Featured lists. If you would rather it be a GA, then it would help for some of the paragraphs and other sections to be fleshed out and expanded.

More comments will follow tomorrow. --1ST7 (talk) 06:02, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

• Can you please provide a background section?
• "clergymen, physicians, editors, journalists, lawyers, teachers, politicians, etc." Please change "etc." to "and others".
• "The differences in number may be explained by the uncertainties of the police as they imprisoned people with the same names." This sentence needs a citation and attribution.
• The last two sentences under "Holding centers" need a citation.
• "Only ten (or thirteen) deportees of this group were granted permission to turn back to the capital from Ayaş." Please provide more explanation for the differences in number.
• "About 150 political prisoners were detained in Ayaş, about 150 intellectual prisoners in Çankırı." The italics are unnecessary.
• In the second sentence under "Court marshal", lieutenants does not need to be in italics.
• In the same section, the last two sentences in both paragraphs need citations.
• The last two paragraphs in the "Release" section need citations.
• The "Survivors" section needs citations.

I'll try to review the list of notable deportees tomorrow. --1ST7 (talk) 05:34, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Here's the review for the list:

• All names seem to have the Armenian script underneath the English except for "Azarik", "Dr. Nakulian", "Panaghogh", "Hagop Tekeyan", and "Reverend Grigorian". Please add the script for those too so the style will be consistent.
• The notes section for Zareh Bardizbanian has an extra reference bracket (</ref>). Please remove it.
• "Set free as he was Bulgarian national and went back to Sofia." Please add an "a" before Bulgarian and add a link to Sofia.
• In cases where the dates or locations are uncertain, question marks are used with parentheses in some parts (?) while others just have the question mark by itself. Please make the style consistent.
• This phrase is a little awkward: "Until the deportees of Ayaş came to know about The 20 Hunchakian gallows of 15 June 1915 they weren't realising the earnest of their situation." The "T" in "The" should be lowercase. Also, please change "earnest" to "severity".
• Please capitalize the first letter of the first word in the "Notes" section for "Marzbed".
• In the "Notes" section of "Yeghia Sughikian", "30'000" should be "30,000".

I'll put this on hold for a week to give you time to address these things. Thanks for your work! --1ST7 (talk) 03:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks 1ST7 (talk · contribs) for the review. I started fixing the minor stuff. But can you please give me a little more than a week for the major stuff? Like the adding of sources and etc.? Since I didn't create the article, it's going to be hard for me to find those sources. I wouldn't want to retrieve the wrong sources either. So if more time could be granted, I would greatly appreciate it. Proudbolsahye (talk) 08:06, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. Sure, I can extend the holding period. Is two weeks alright? Or three? --1ST7 (talk) 23:24, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

There's a lot to do. So I'd like three weeks. Most likely, I'll finish before then though. Proudbolsahye (talk) 01:44, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

@1ST7:, I expanded a bit on the survivors section and included the relevant refs for it. All other small problems I have resolved already. In terms of the sourcing, the reason why it's not sourced (i.e. end of court martials section or release section) is because those are already describe in detail in the case by case listing of the deportee. For example, see Kherbekian in the list. Please let me know if you have any other concerns. Thanks. Proudbolsahye (talk) 00:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Great work on the improvements. There's just a few things that need to be sorted out before this can pass as a GA. "Baghdasar Serkisian" still needs the Armenian script under his name (he's down towards the bottom of the table, and listed as a survivor). The references are still needed, as the list is a separate section and harder to navigate. You can just use the <ref name=> system to link the citations. There doesn't appear to be any copyright violations in the article. The FL vs. GA issue is still unresolved. The article is listed as a normal article, not a list, but the list part makes up a substantial portion of the page. What are your thoughts on this issue? I'm considering seeking another opinion on this, and I'd like to double check the prose before passing the article. --1ST7 (talk) 01:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Added the necessary refs and added Baghdasar's name. You are free to ask for a third opinion. I believe that there is enough prose to consider this a GA article. However, I would like to double check myself as well. As far as I can see, some articles are being nominated for FL that are currently at a GA status. See here. I don't see why the article should be picking one over the other. Anyways, maybe the FL community can help us. Proudbolsahye (talk) 04:05, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I went ahead and requested another opinion, and three other GA reviewers recommended taking this to FL. Please know that the reasons for this not being promoted are technical, and are not related to any quality issues. I encourage you to nominate this at Wikipedia:Featured list candidates. As the FL criteria is a little higher than the GA criteria, you may want to get a peer review first. Thank you again for all the work you have put into this article. --1ST7 (talk) 23:37, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment

I am quite concerned that I see no mention in the above review that any checking has been done for close paraphrasing. In the last GAN where 1ST7 reviewed a nomination by Proudbolsahye, Confiscated Armenian properties in Turkey, there was no apparent checking for such issues, because shortly after being listed as a GA, a great many problems were found in this area (see Talk:Confiscated Armenian properties in Turkey#Close paraphrasing) over the course of a month, any of which should have halted the review in its tracks while they were being fixed, and all of which are violations of the good article criteria.

You might want to get a ruling now on whether this is a list or not. Frankly, it looks like one to me, and on the wrong side of the GA/FL divide, but someone with more experience should be found before the review is finalized. Maybe ask for a 2nd opinion?

Finally, the prose needs to be checked further, in the various notes and captions as well as the paragraphs up top. For example, Footnote 5 about the Kalfayans is problematic in a few ways, grammatically, including "mistakingly", which should be "mistakenly". Also, the "Release" section starts with the sentence "Any prisoners released came through the intercession of influential persons who they found through their own means." This sentence is unclear, and certainly not up to GA standards. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

This article wasn't created by me. I've actually only made minor copy-edits in this article. But yes, close paraphrasing should be checked out regardless. I'll fix the other issues you've raised as well. Proudbolsahye (talk) 02:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I've actually already checked for close paraphrasing with the Copyvio Detector, which showed no sign of any violations. --1ST7 (talk) 04:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The Copyvio Detector is, for GA purposes, useless. (Also for DYK.) If that's what you used on the Confiscated Armenian properties article, I'm not surprised you didn't turn up anything. It might possibly find random sources that were copied from, if such existed, but for a useful test, run the Duplication Detector and compare the article against a reasonable number of the referenced English language sources in it. If there are many foreign-language sources, run some of them through Google translate and see if any of the resulting English looks similar to wording in the article. I've never gotten a hit from the Copyvio Detector, but on the same article have found a number of identical and near-identical phrases from one or more sources in Duplication Detector, and sometimes have found overly similar phrases between an article and Google translation of sources. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, okay. Thanks for telling me that. I'll switch to the method you recommended from now on. --1ST7 (talk) 04:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 14:19, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

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Deportation of Armenian notables on 24 April 1915 → Deportation of Armenian intellectuals on 24 April 1915 – The term "intellectual" ("a person who primarily uses intelligence in either a professional or an individual capacity") is more accurate in describing all these people (lawyers, physicians, artists, writers) than the word "notable", which simply "a famous or important person". I doubt that they were all famous, even within the Armenian community of Constantinople, but they were certainly people who "used their brains". Երևանցի ^talk 16:30, 5 January 2014 (UTC) Google Books generates 99 results for "Deportation" "Armenian" "notables" 24 April 1915" and 446 results for "Deportation" "Armenian" "intellectuals" 24 April 1915", so "intellectual" does seem to be common as well. --Երևանցի ^talk 16:30, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

• Support Per common name. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:33, 5 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support. The term "intellectual" seems to describe these individuals more accurately. --1ST7 (talk) 03:25, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
• Support. More appropriate. Maurice07 (talk) 22:57, 9 January 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

New depths of ludicrousness

"Eventually, the total number of arrests and deportations amounted to 2,345" we are told. We are given a reference for this: Dadrian. It is on page 221 of my paperback volume. Astonishment should not be too strong a word when reading the source Dadrian actually cites for this figure. It is Esat Uras and his notorious "The Armenians in History and the Armenian Question", a propaganda work that seeks to deny that Armenia was ever a nation, and of course denies there was a genocide. And as for that "2345" figure in Uras's book, it is fairly well known that it was just a typo, and should be "235"! Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 03:55, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

To clarify the above. The "Eventually, the total number of arrests and deportations amounted to 2,345" claim in the article is entirely false, no such arrests and deportations took place. It originated as a typo error for 235, 235 being the number of persons deported on 24 April, and then as a very an amateurish acceptance that the number 2345 referred to a different event from the 235 one. Finally, by repeating this false claim often enough, and in enough sources, it becomes true and undisputable for Wikipedia. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 21:10, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Why?

Besides a very limited "The event has been described by historians as a decapitation strike which was intended to deprive the Armenian population of leadership and a chance for resistance", the article tells us nothing about why this took place. What was the motivation behind it? To "deprive the Armenian population of leadership" is not a goal, it is the means to a goal - what was the objective? Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 17:37, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

The objective was genocide. Étienne Dolet (talk) 18:10, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Genocide is not an objective, it is a means to an end. To want a genocide, something must motivate it. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:59, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Agree that the section needs a bit more context to live up to FL quality. 23 editor (talk) 15:58, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

Rui Gabriel Correia Your point is well-taken. However, we can't add everything about the AG here. There are numerous causes for it. That's why we have the Armenian Genocide article to help better explain that for us. It'll be like adding information as to why the Holocaust happened in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising article. That'll be redundant I'm afraid. Étienne Dolet (talk) 14:35, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

EtienneDolet and 23 editor Thanks for your time and looking into this. I get your point about redundancy. I will try and find time later to see if there is a way or incorporating a few words to smooth over the jolt. Something about retaliation for Armenian support for the Young Turks coup and movement ... that escalated to the point of full-blown genocide. That's just an intial thought, I need to read more, would not want to be rash. Keep well. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 15:10, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

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